Why count RHD against levels?

[Kaje]

When determining ECL for characters with RHD and LA, I can totally understand counting the LA against class levels, but what is the rationale for using RHD as well? Is a unicorn really so amazingly good that it would be unbalanced to allow it to take a level before 9th? A gnoll before 4th? Sure doesn't seem like it to me.

[blackjack217]

RHD are usually basically really bad class

[Quietus]

If you didn't, then a level 1 Gnoll Rogue would be a 2nd level character with four hit dice.

[WarKitty]

Usually I find it works well enough to let class levels take up RHD.

[Kaje]

If you didn't, then a level 1 Gnoll Rogue would be a 2nd level character with four hit dice.

Ok, how about just ignore those extra HD, and create it like a regular PC.

[Yora]

Racial Hit Dice advance hit points, base attack bonus and saves, and provide skill points, raise maximum skill rank, grant feats, and help you to become immune against spells that have a HD limit.
Not counting them would make a charcter much more powerful. But usually the benefit from racial HD is much worse than the one you'd get from actual class levels.

When I still used E6 for my campaign, I allowed PCs and NPCs to convert racial HD into class levels once the maximum number of 6 HD was reached.

[Psyren]

A few RHD are good - Outsiders for instance are d8, full BAB, all good saves, 8+Int skills and MWP. They also get shield proficiency if they have armor proficiency, without the "(except tower shields)" clause.

RHD tend to suck on casters though, unless they stack for some kind of innate casting ability in that particular creature's case.

[Eldan]

Theoretically (if it was balanced and worked at all...)

You have creatures with RHD. However, just giving it enough LA that it would be balanced would mean cripplingly overspecializing it in most cases: if you have something which gets, say, the ability to cast as a caster of a certain level, like the Rakhshasa, it would have to have at least the same amount of LA as it has caster levels. Then, probably more, because it has better stats. You would, however, end up with a Rakhshasa Sorcerer1 that has, let's say, LA+9, good stats, the casting of a level 10 sorcerer, but only a single d4 hit die. Which means that you shoot it with a crossbow bolt from a level 1 goblin and it dies, unless it has every defensive spell up it can.

So, theoretically, its' a balance thing: for really strong creatures, you lower the LA, and let the RHD count as well, so the creature has t least some hit points and base attack.

[KillianHawkeye]

Theoretically (if it was balanced and worked at all...)

You have creatures with RHD. However, just giving it enough LA that it would be balanced would mean cripplingly overspecializing it in most cases: if you have something which gets, say, the ability to cast as a caster of a certain level, like the Rakhshasa, it would have to have at least the same amount of LA as it has caster levels. Then, probably more, because it has better stats. You would, however, end up with a Rakhshasa Sorcerer1 that has, let's say, LA+9, good stats, the casting of a level 10 sorcerer, but only a single d4 hit die. Which means that you shoot it with a crossbow bolt from a level 1 goblin and it dies, unless it has every defensive spell up it can.

So, theoretically, its' a balance thing: for really strong creatures, you lower the LA, and let the RHD count as well, so the creature has t least some hit points and base attack.

Basically, this.



Creatures with RHD were designed to be used as monsters first and playable races second. Their RHD allows them to be used against the PCs out of the box, and the creature's CR is (supposedly) based on it's RHD, or monster level, plus or minus some amount derived from its special abilities or lack thereof.

LA was added on after this, to (supposedly, again) account for the difference in usefulness of a creature's special abilities when given to the player to keep as opposed to being faced by the players in a single encounter. For example, lots of demons and devils have the ability to teleport at-will. This would be way more useful to the players compared to how effective it is when used against the players. When combined with the fact that those sorts of creatures have resistances and immunities to various forms of attacks, as well as other special abilities, they are clearly stronger than their monster level (HD) would indicate.



So to summarize, Level Adjustment was always designed to be used along with a creature's Hit Dice. It's a patch to "fix" the creature's power level compared to PCs of the more standard races.

Disclaimer: This post takes no stance on the success or usefulness of Level Adjustments versus Racial Hit Dice. It was intended only to discuss the purposes of the two systems.

[LibraryOgre]

Usually I find it works well enough to let class levels take up RHD.

I use something slightly different; instead of class levels, I use NPC class levels. Except for Commoner, they're generally superior to racial HD (with the exception of Dragon or Outsider HD), and it gives the character something, without making RHD irrelevant.

Ok, how about just ignore those extra HD, and create it like a regular PC.

In some cases, that's perfectly reasonable... generally, I don't see a problem when the RHD are 1 or 2.

[Greenish]

I use something slightly different; instead of class levels, I use NPC class levels. Except for Commoner, they're generally superior to racial HD (with the exception of Dragon or Outsider HD), and it gives the character something, without making RHD irrelevant.

I don't know, Monstrous Humanoid RHD isn't that rare, and it's better than NPC classes for most purposes. Magical Beast RHD isn't bad, either.

[Goudaa]

Maybe i'm misunderstanding here - but you want to allow races with LA and RHD to just start at 1st with class levels in your game?

Raksasha Nathzarune it is!

[WarKitty]

Maybe i'm misunderstanding here - but you want to allow races with LA and RHD to just start at 1st with class levels in your game?

Raksasha Nathzarune it is!

I think it's more not getting stuck with RHD and LA for races that aren't all that powerful. Sure being a minotaur is nice, but is it really worth LA+2 *and* 6 almost worthless hit die?

[Goudaa]

I think it's more not getting stuck with RHD and LA for races that aren't all that powerful. Sure being a minotaur is nice, but is it really worth LA+2 *and* 6 almost worthless hit die?

The problem with making an exception as a general fix is it leaves doors open for player abuse and whining when they get into "well if joe can do it with X why can't I do it with why!?"

My post was illustrating the stance of an abusive player.

I personally feel the RHD and LA is there for a reason. Look at centaur for example. 2LA and 4RHD. That's a bad ass 7th level char imho.

[WarKitty]

The problem with making an exception as a general fix is it leaves doors open for player abuse and whining when they get into "well if joe can do it with X why can't I do it with why!?"

My post was illustrating the stance of an abusive player.

I personally feel the RHD and LA is there for a reason. Look at centaur for example. 2LA and 4RHD. That's a bad ass 7th level char imho.

True. But that bad ass 7th level character is probably going to turn into a pathetic level 15 character. My main issue with RHD is that there's no buyoff mechanism like there is for LA.

[Duke of URL]

I houserule that any creature gets to trade 1 RHD (or it's partial RHD, if it has less than 1) for its first class level. That helps out a little for the "lower-end" critters.

I also think that LA is overkill, even with buyoff. I like reducing LA by 1 for every three class levels, automatically. This reduces ECL by 1 each time, but does nothing to character level.

E.g., the centaur. It starts play at ECL 6 with LA +2 / Fey 3 / Class 1. At ECL 8, it gains its 3rd class level, and drops 1 level of LA, becoming LA +1 / Fey 3 / Class(es) 3, which is now ECL 7. After three more class levels, the last LA goes away, making it Fey 3 / Class(es) 6, and now ECL 9.

This method has them still staying behind non-LA characters in the party without being as crippling.

[LibraryOgre]

I don't know, Monstrous Humanoid RHD isn't that rare, and it's better than NPC classes for most purposes. Magical Beast RHD isn't bad, either.

True; I hadn't looked over those in a while. I don't see many magical beast HD (which is "Fighter with two good saves and no feats"), but Monstrous humanoid isn't bad at all ("Fighter with 2 good saves, d8 HD and no feats"). It also allows you to switch some things up, however. Replace your 6 RHD with Adept levels, or use Aristocrat to represent someone with more education and less smashy.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding here - but you want to allow races with LA and RHD to just start at 1st with class levels in your game?

Not quite. In my version, you can replace your RHD with NPC class levels, but LA doesn't go away, nor do the RHD. So, an ogre* could replace his Giant RHD with Warrior, going from d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, Good Fort and 2 skill points to d8 HD, 1/1 BAB, Good Fort and 2 skill points. Or, you might have an ogre shaman, who replaced his Giant RHD with Adept, going to d6 HD, 1/2 BAB, Good Will, 2 skill points, spells and a familiar. If you add a level of barbarian to either character, they're 7th level... 4 levels of NPC, 2 levels of LA, 1 level of Barbarian... but they're a bit more powerful and flexible than straight RHD.


*Not Raksasha, because he'll want keep his Outsider HD under my scheme.

[Person_Man]

Early on in development it was assumed that players would play as PC races, and not monsters. LA and Racial Hit dice were shoehorned in after the fact. Thus there really isn't anything logical or consistent LA or RHD.

If you want to play a race that has racial hit dice or level adjustment above +2, then I highly suggest just homebrewing a solution for that specific race. Coming up with some sort of "one size fits all" conversion rules will just lead to a lot of weird unintended consequences.

[Psyren]

@ Duke of URL: Nitpick - Centaurs are monstrous humanoids, not fey. (I made that mistake once too.)

Fey get much higher skill points but have the worst BAB progression. Saves are the same.

[Flickerdart]

True. But that bad ass 7th level character is probably going to turn into a pathetic level 15 character. My main issue with RHD is that there's no buyoff mechanism like there is for LA.

There sure is. Level drain yourself down to level 1, then get a Restoration to get that XP back and take real class levels. You've now "bought off" all but one RHD.

[WarKitty]

There sure is. Level drain yourself down to level 1, then get a Restoration to get that XP back and take real class levels. You've now "bought off" all but one RHD.

Ok, there's no logical buyoff mechanism that doesn't involve large amounts of cheese.

[Kylarra]

There sure is. Level drain yourself down to level 1, then get a Restoration to get that XP back and take real class levels. You've now "bought off" all but one RHD.

You've probably also acquired a DMG being thrown at you, but that's neither here nor there I guess.

[Duke of URL]

@ Duke of URL: Nitpick - Centaurs are monstrous humanoids, not fey. (I made that mistake once too.)

Fey get much higher skill points but have the worst BAB progression. Saves are the same.

Dang. That's what I get for assuming.

Nonetheless, after LA buyoff, said centaur still has 3 RHD (+3 BAB, +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will, 2+int skill points/HD, including at 1st level (x4)); in lieu of 3 levels of class features, it gets:

Large size
Darkvision 60'
+3 natural armor
Ability modifiers of +8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.

Seems like a decent, if not ideal, trade to me, when compared to tier 3-4 classes.

[Greenish]

Dang. That's what I get for assuming.

Nonetheless, after LA buyoff, said centaur still has 3 RHD (+3 BAB, +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will, 2+int skill points/HD, including at 1st level (x4)); in lieu of 3 levels of class features, it gets:

Large size
Darkvision 60'
+3 natural armor
Ability modifiers of +8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.

Seems like a decent, if not ideal, trade to me, when compared to tier 3-4 classes.

Centaurs lack the strongest benefit of being large, though: their reach is still mere 5'. Makes for a decent enough mounted character, I guess.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Ok, there's no logical buyoff mechanism that doesn't involve large amounts of cheese.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but the fact of the matter is, as the OP found out, the ECL equation is unbalanced

Here is what it should be

Its either balance it (pretty much exactly as I have, you'd be surprised how unoriginal this is) or expect restoration with similar restrictions. LA buyoff is assumed.

[WarKitty]

Just so we're clear, by "no logical buyoff mechanism" I meant RAW buyoff mechanism like there is for LA. I'm quite sure there are several systems out there that people have made, there's just not one published by WoTC.

[Susano-wo]

restoration says you get the experience levels back. Which means that the DM needs to decide what that means, since its not specific. AS a DM, I'd interperate that as is restores the previous class levels you had.

And no, the proper response to not liking that the DM is not modifying RAW the way you want is not to try to manipulate RAW through spells, etc. Its to have a conversation with said DM and probably the other players, and to either not play under the DM, or accept the rulings used.

[ffone]

When determining ECL for characters with RHD and LA, I can totally understand counting the LA against class levels, but what is the rationale for using RHD as well? Is a unicorn really so amazingly good that it would be unbalanced to allow it to take a level before 9th? A gnoll before 4th? Sure doesn't seem like it to me.

This is a common question, and the answer is usually in the question: the badness of the racial HD is precisely why they shouldn't be removed. The level adjustment is calibrated relative to this.

Dang. That's what I get for assuming.

Nonetheless, after LA buyoff, said centaur still has 3 RHD (+3 BAB, +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will, 2+int skill points/HD, including at 1st level (x4)); in lieu of 3 levels of class features, it gets:

Large size
Darkvision 60'
+3 natural armor
Ability modifiers of +8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.

Seems like a decent, if not ideal, trade to me, when compared to tier 3-4 classes.

Decent? What other full-BAB class gives that much in three levels? Point me to it, please!

[Runestar]

This is a common question, and the answer is usually in the question: the badness of the racial HD is precisely why they shouldn't be removed. The level adjustment is calibrated relative to this.

Or rather, if LA had been calibrated fairly and accurately, there would be no need for this.

Sadly, just about every ECL in existence is pretty much inflated and ends up making said monster much weaker compared to a classed PC of that ECL.

[ffone]

Or rather, if LA had been calibrated fairly and accurately, there would be no need for this.

Sadly, just about every ECL in existence is pretty much inflated and ends up making said monster much weaker compared to a classed PC of that ECL.

Maybe. They tend to be weaker than hyperoptimized characters, but Str-based monstrous chars are not necessarily weaker than similar humanoid 'martial class' chars in a 'typical' campaign (level of optimization).

The sol'n is to ask the DM for a lessening of LA on a case by case basis, just throwing out the RHD is too extreme.