Playing a Good-Aligned (Prospective) Dark Lord

[Leliel]

Well, we've all seen the stereotype. Evil warlord with both incredible military might and inexplicable ability to avoid the consequences of having no popularity, possibly magically inclined and with an inner circle of powerful lieutenants.

Since I like to mock stereotypes I like, I've decided to explore the results of what happens when one has the look and the aims, but not the personality or the inhumanity.

So, here we have Lord Tabris (he has a first name, he just doesn't disclose it very much), the ambitious tiefling-raised young magus with a dream to build an empire one day, and has the power-hunger to match...but he's not actually an immoral person-indeed, kindness and mercy are his prime redeeming traits-and he uses adventuring as a way to learn the mistakes of other tyrants (as in, rulers of non-royal blood) so he won't fall into them himself. Really, he just wants to build a home for the beastmen (my term for non-human races distrusted by the Forces of Good (tm)), since he thinks the only true reason they're looked down on is that they have no political power among the "civilized" races of the world.

So, how would you RP this guy?

EDIT: Quick note: Tabris is an idealist, but he's also a bit of a pragmatist-just because he thinks the "inherently evil" byline on many beastmen is an exaggeration, he knows very well that some have done their best to earn it (*cough*Orcs*cough*).

[Avilan the Grey]

Not exactly the same issue, but I remember someone reflecting (after reading the Evil Overlord List) that a really successful Evil Overlord would be impossible to tell apart from a skillful efficient and liked ruler.

[Marnath]

What's the evil overlord list?

[Beelzebub1111]

The beastmen may be the problem. A good twist would be to ACTUALLY have them be evil and deserving of mistrust.

[Avilan the Grey]

What's the evil overlord list?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ilOverlordList

...I forgot to mention he also watched the "Scorpio" Simpson episode.

[Leliel]

The beastmen may be the problem. A good twist would be to ACTUALLY have them be evil and deserving of mistrust.

I should have put this up there in the post, but:

He may be unusually merciful for the average "kill people and take their stuff" profession of adventuring, but he's far from naive-there are races out there that in no way should be allowed near power, and while he thinks this is a product of upbringing rather than nature, he's not going to allow, say, the clergy of Grummush into his ideal of a kingdom. The 4E core version of Bane might be allowed a foothold (since he's really more about the dark side of spreading civilization than true war), but not without oversight.

[Marnath]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ilOverlordList

...I forgot to mention he also watched the "Scorpio" Simpson episode.

I can't imagine what would happen if you tried to read all of those links. You would get so sidetracked you'd never find your way back.

[RuthieA]

From what I see, it's not that difficult. Just play him the way he is--if he doesn't judge people based on stereotype than play him as willing to give other races a chance, but also willing to act once they have proven themselves one way or another (if you have a really clever DM, than this might pay off), if he has ambition for rulership, also play this--being a charismatic leader who wants to rule isn't necessarily an evil trait. Ambition, although a very typical trait of villains can be a positive trait, after all it is the ambitious people who achieve things. From a stat perspective, I would recommend as you play putting points not only towards the skills that would benefit his military prowess, but also his skills as a ruler--such as diplomacy, and definitely take the Leadership feat once you reach the proper level. As for a way to RP this, just have him look into either places he could rule (e.g. if your group topples an evil ruler maybe have him look into becoming the next ruler), or into places he could make a kingdom--by the time you're high level, building a kingdom from the ground up won't be impossible, especially if you've made allies along the way.

Actually, he seems like a really interesting character, and one who could add a lot to a play group (such as providing story ideas in his quest to find a place to rule).

[Crafty Cultist]

Personally, I think the place he would differentiate himself from other conquerors would be when someone decides hes dangerous and tries to take him out. After thwarting the attept, rather than declaring his intentions for vengeance, he might spread word of the attempt on his life without any vow to return the favour, simply dismissing the one responsible as small minded and paranoid. This would make those who make themselves his enemies seem dangerous and make him seem kinder by comparison.

[Marnath]

Personally, I think the place he would differentiate himself from other conquerors would be when someone decides hes dangerous and tries to take him out. After thwarting the attept, rather than declaring his intentions for vengeance, he might spread word of the attempt on his life without any vow to return the favour, simply dismissing the one responsible as small minded and paranoid. This would make those who make themselves his enemies seem dangerous and make him seem kinder by comparison.

It would also be a really bad idea, because next time the guy tries it, he might succeed. Giving an assassin another try is usually not a wise move.

[flabort]

I can't imagine what would happen if you tried to read all of those links. You would get so sidetracked you'd never find your way back.

I've done that... well... I've read 30% of those links, ON THAT PAGE. Spent days reading them. And did you know that that list is spread over three pages, and that there's three 'bonus' pages with further items added onto the list?

You WILL end up uber prepared for heroes to come pounding on your door, whether you're an evil overlord or not. DO NOT READ. I REPEAT, DO NOT READ.

[Crafty Cultist]

It would also be a really bad idea, because next time the guy tries it, he might succeed. Giving an assassin another try is usually not a wise move.

If you are accused of attempting to assasinate somebody, you are generally the first suspect if the are killed under suspicious circumstances. If the target of said attempt was truly a threat it might be overlooked, but killing someone whos attitude is live and let live is just asking to ruin your reputation.

[Zhalath]

Just going to ask, does he have any of the following:
-silver/white hair
-red eyes
-unusual friendliness to less confident members of party
-good abjuration magic

Because that name...

[Leliel]

Just going to ask, does he have any of the following:
-silver/white hair
-red eyes
-unusual friendliness to less confident members of party
-good abjuration magic

Because that name...

Yes, I know where it comes from.

It is, however, unrelated. I'm actually using it for the actual angel, not Kawrou.

As a side note, his hair is white, but that's not it's natural color: He dyes it. Underneath the gel, it's brown. Not auburn, just brown.

Indeed, that's part of the reason his hair is roughly the color of snow now: "Brown" is a rather lame color in D&D.

[Moogleking]

Its Garland from 8-Bit Theatre :O

[Callos_DeTerran]

Er...from the sounds of it, he doesn't qualify as a 'Dark Lord' at all. Just play him as you would with any other lawful neutral character. Heck, I haven't even seen anything about him that screams 'evil' at all.

[Leliel]

Er...from the sounds of it, he doesn't qualify as a 'Dark Lord' at all. Just play him as you would with any other lawful neutral character. Heck, I haven't even seen anything about him that screams 'evil' at all.

Well, no, you haven't. That's part of the point. He looks the part, but in practice...

Still, I think that's because I haven't mentioned his negative qualities. I like anti-heroes too.

To put it simply, he's selfish, amoral, and views the world in terms of Darwinian ethics-those who have strength have every right to use it to rule the weaker, in his opinion. He's just not particularly elitist about it.

On the Magic Color Wheel, he'd be Black, with White and Blue tied for secondary.

Or, even better, he'd be Chaotic in the Shin Megami Tensei series.

[Zhalath]

Yes, I know where it comes from.

It is, however, unrelated. I'm actually using it for the actual angel, not Kawrou.

As a side note, his hair is white, but that's not it's natural color: He dyes it. Underneath the gel, it's brown. Not auburn, just brown.

Indeed, that's part of the reason his hair is roughly the color of snow now: "Brown" is a rather lame color in D&D.

Also, I just noticed your name.
(:-

To me he sounds Lawful Neutral. I'd roleplay him as very orderly and organized, and perhaps critical of his enemy's plans.

[Murdim]

To put it simply, he's selfish, amoral, and views the world in terms of Darwinian ethics-those who have strength have every right to use it to rule the weaker, in his opinion. He's just not particularly elitist about it.

On the Magic Color Wheel, he'd be Black, with Blue secondary and lip service to White out of necessity.

Soooooo. In this case, why is he even caring about the oppressed Beastmen ? By definition, those are races that have failed, are still actively failing, and will probably ever fail at building a civilization for themselves. They aren't worthy of his respect, let alone his help. Beastmen might be useful as expendable minions, as a means to achieve one's goal, but I don't see any reason why your character would want to build his nation around them, rather than, say, a group mainly composed of humans and tieflings.

This is a recurring theme around evil overlords, really. They don't really care about the evil or misunderstood races they manage to rally around them, because according to their ideology - which is also apparently your character's - they're only valuable to the extent that they're furthering his agenda. Just look at Redcloak, and the way he treated hobgoblins until he realised what a childish idiot he has been to arbitrarily exclude them from his vision. Redcloak wants to build a nation for his race, for his people, which is of course the greatest of them all. If he were to ally with, say, a bunch of orc tribes, their lives wouldn't matter the slightest to him because his ambition is a goblinoid-run empire.

In Magic : The Gathering, Black characters are almost always villains. They're not necessarily antagonists, and the four other colors have also their fair share of bad guys, but the logical statement "MTG Black implies D&D Evil" is at the very least an extremely reliable heuristic for anything that isn't Black despite itself (some undead and Phyrexians, mostly). And that's not without reason. Black isn't the Nietzschean color. It is the Nietzsche Wannabe color. The only power that Black values is the power to crush those who are weaker than you. By your character's own logic, it is perfectly fine that the main races are crushing the Beastmen under their heel. Not just fine, actually ; it is right, and probably even admirable.


From this somewhat conflicting characterization, I see at least two possibilities.

Either your character is not any better than your average Dark Lord, and doesn't actually sympathize with the Beastmen, after all ; if he's interested in leading them specifically, that's only because once united and bolstered by his power, once stripped of their former identity and culture, those negligible, primitive, weak-minded losers are the perfect clay from which to mold his idea of an ideal society - ruthless, efficient, ever-expanding, and completely, devotedly centered on and dependant of its godlike creator. For yet another MTG analogy, think about a certain healer, who only cared about the weakened, phthisis-ridden Thran so that he could turn them into his "perfect" killing machines.

Or he could have another system of beliefs that precedes his outward "might makes right" propaganda, one that lets him value the Beastmen for who they are and explains why they are at the core of his ambitions, rather than just another tool.

[Leliel]

Or he could have another system of beliefs that precedes his outward "might makes right" propaganda, one that lets him value the Beastmen for who they are and explains why they are at the core of his ambitions, rather than just another tool.

He does have one.

It is covered under TV Tropes page under "The Unfettered", but to put it simply:

To him, goals are the only real thing that matters in the world. And his goals include "the prosperity and strength of my adopted family".

His adopted family was an eclectic collection of bandits, including kenku, tieflings, free kobolds...

And just because he thinks morality is ultimately a sham, it doesn't mean he doesn't respect it's aims. Altruism is, at it's core, a very useful evolutionary trait in a savage world.

EDIT: Oh, and don't think he's not a hypocrite-as Tabris will explain quite happily, it is also the right of the weak to become strong.

EDIT2: Actually now that I think about it, he's White secondary. True, he cares more about those close to him than anyone outside of his "clan", but he's an empathetic sort. Peace through superior firepower is still peace.

Then again, I would think forgiveness is actually a Black trait (come on, you expected him to screw you over, can't really hold it against him).

[herrhauptmann]

What's the evil overlord list?

You have failed as a nerd. But we can fix you.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ilOverlordList

Here's the list without so many distractions I've always liked #29, 47
Rather than sparing the assassin, follow rule 68. And 95 is important if you take prisoners

[Marnath]

If you are accused of attempting to assasinate somebody, you are generally the first suspect if the are killed under suspicious circumstances. If the target of said attempt was truly a threat it might be overlooked, but killing someone whos attitude is live and let live is just asking to ruin your reputation.

Yeah, his reputation is ruined for taking a second shot at you. Guess what though? You're DEAD. I don't think that's an acceptable trade, myself.

[Crafty Cultist]

Yeah, his reputation is ruined for taking a second shot at you. Guess what though? You're DEAD. I don't think that's an acceptable trade, myself.

Of course, if you can foil one assassination attempt, you can foil another, especially now that his guard is up.

[Arbane]

Then again, I would think forgiveness is actually a Black trait (come on, you expected him to screw you over, can't really hold it against him).

"Forgive them first, THEN KILL THEM." - G. Gordon Gordon.

[Urpriest]

I think the whole "Tyrant == ruler not of noble blood" thing could be a big theme for this character. Think about Vetinari, the Tyrant of Ankh-Morpork. Essentially, your character is an educated person who thinks there are better ways to rule a country. He's Machiavellian, but in the pre-Medici torture and satire sense: he believes that he can do good for the world, but he's not shy about being ruthless to do so. The aesthetics of evil should be almost accidental for him: a diplomatic offer easily misconstrued as a threat, a stark measure taken with glee so as not to show his doubt, etc.

[Godskook]

I can't imagine what would happen if you tried to read all of those links. You would get so sidetracked you'd never find your way back.

Try this link-free version of the list:

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

[herrhauptmann]

Try this link-free version of the list:

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

Ninja'd by hours

You have failed as a nerd. But we can fix you.

Here's the list without so many distractions I've always liked #29, 47
Rather than sparing the assassin, follow rule 68. And 95 is important if you take prisoners

[Marnath]

Thanks guys. Link free version is a lot better.

[Leliel]

"Forgive them first, THEN KILL THEM." - G. Gordon Gordon.

Ha-ha, yeah.

Reading over the Wheel, I actually think Black is the "honest" alignment-sure, you're out for yourself, but you make no bones about being not out for yourself, and you can accept criticism. Hubris, after all, is a form of weakness.

White, on the other hand? White is delusional by it's very nature-like it's opposite, White wants what White gets, but it thinks it's doing this for the benefit of all. And that is terrifying.

Let's look at the main villain of Tales Of Symphonia, shall we?

*SPOILERS*

Spoiler

Show

Let's be frank, Mithos is pretty much the embodiment of White/Green ideals up until the very end, and even then, it's only because his sanity's broken by a little-he convinces himself that the state of the world as it is at that point has progressed to the point where it isn't worth saving compared to just resetting it. That's not Black, it's Red (technically, it's Blue as well, but Mithos has none of the logic or patience associated with Blue, and his decision is completely out of left field). Other than that, he retains the sheer force of hubris that allows him to both rationally plan what he does and refuse to understand what he's actually doing.

[randomhero00]

Well I think almost all dark lords think they're doing good. The highway to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

So roleplay him as you normally would a good/neutral mix, but throw in the ocassional creepy factor. Subtle is key.