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Thread: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
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2010-11-13, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Our party is in a room. There are two doors on opposite walls, plus a 3rd locked door (unpickable, requires an object from one of the other rooms). Both doors open to reveal a group of enemies behind each door.
The druid casts briar web on the one group of enemies. Note that they are all adjacent to the doorway, and thus in range of our melee. 2 are caught, one is not but can't get out of the area of effect. Our barbarians hack away. The alchemist and ranger knock out the other group, which causes a door to open and another set of them to appear, with slightly greater numbers and a recognizable boss. This group is wielding guns, a weapon which experience has taught us to be wary of.
Next round: The druid tosses a wall of vermin in front of the gun-wielders. The alchemist and one of our fighters proceed to get into a battle with them, during which the fighter is rather ineffective due to not having very good dex and them having cover from the wall. They do get taken out, primarily by the alchemist's damage.
After the battle, the fighter's player maintained that the druid spells were overpowered and making her useless. Druid maintained that she's just trying to be useful due to not having a lot of direct damage options. Your opinions, playground?Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
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2010-11-13, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Fighter is just realizing fighters don't compare to casters.
Druid is just being a druid...without even bringing the nastier spells.
The immediate feeling that comes from what you said is that the fighter won't be satisfied until the druid is reduced to a glorified wand of call lightning or something like that. Is anyone else bothered or overshadowed by the druid? Fighters lag behind most other classes so adjusting around the fighter will be a big impediment.
"the druid's spells are overpowered" can be simplified to "spells are overpowered".Last edited by Synapse; 2010-11-13 at 10:42 AM.
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2010-11-13, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
I just have to say that 'unpickable locks' are silly.
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2010-11-13, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
In reality, this was just not a situation where the fighter and druid can work well together. There's plenty of other environments where they can.
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2010-11-13, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
The druid did nothing wrong, and played intelligently.
I expect to be ninja'd a few times before I finish this post, but I feel like the already cramped fighting space was what really limited the fighter. If the barbarian charged up to the door first, well, how much room was there for everyone else to crowd into the bottleneck?
The druid controlling the battlefield may have contributed to the cramped fighting space, but you can't blame them. Maybe the fighter should pick up a ranged weapon (like a gun, with exotic weapon proficiency) and precise shot for situations like this where they can't move around?
Basically: The druid is playing up her strengths, which is good (since she'll want to contribute and not just stand around doing nothing or slinging stones). The fighter, with her feats, should really adopt a fighting style that works well with the druid's crowd controlling abilities. Bull rushing enemies back into ensnarement, ranged attacks for trapped enemies, and providing a wall of cover for the druid in case enemies target her.
Or, you know, she could stand around and be bitter that the badguys couldn't swarm in, firing barrages of bullets and destroying the party.
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2010-11-13, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Meh, it worked in the game. DM's way of making us actually go get the key
In general: I should say that the druid in this situation is my character, so I'm not entirely unbiased. Although this was one of the first battles I've really managed to feel useful. I had originally build the character as a controller; before this session I had combed books looking for control spells. Before I kept ending up casting produce flame over and over, which gets boring fast.Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-13, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Well, your fighter just figured out that his role is that of an animal companion, just weaker?
I think that the battle was fought intelligently, without druid stealing the spotlight...
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2010-11-13, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Last edited by WarKitty; 2010-11-13 at 11:20 AM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-13, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-13, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Last edited by WarKitty; 2010-11-13 at 11:40 AM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-13, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-13 at 12:05 PM.
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2010-11-13, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Last edited by WarKitty; 2010-11-13 at 12:08 PM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-13, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-13, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Edit: Nevermind link was incorrect
No comments on the NG drow please, it's a world feature not a Drizzt knockoff.Last edited by WarKitty; 2010-11-13 at 08:44 PM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-13, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Last edited by Kaww; 2010-11-13 at 12:25 PM.
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2010-11-13, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Actually our group is 50/50 split along gender lines (or roughly so depending on how you count gendervariant individuals).
Myself and the alchemist are probably the only top-tier classes out there. Party composition:
Druid (myself)
Ranger, archery style but really focused on power attack with a greatsword
Alchemist, mostly throws bombs for a fair bit of damage
Fighter/Sorc going for spellsword/eldritch knight (hasn't decided)
Fighter (the unoptimized one)
2 barbarians, will probably not last long
I've been trying not to overwhelm encounters and leave stuff for the melee to do. I just don't want to be relegated to dealing straight damage instead of running tactics. It's sort of feeling like I either outclass them or become totally ineffectual.Last edited by WarKitty; 2010-11-13 at 12:31 PM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-13, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
This drow... is weird.
She is level 4 Fighter with base attack 3?
She only chose her Fighter bonus feats; she is missing her standard levelling feats from level 1 and 3.
Also, she could have chosen one of the fighter archetypes. Two-handed Fighter seems fitting.
EDIT: Also, I believe there is no CR adjustment for non-noble drow.Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-11-13 at 01:54 PM.
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2010-11-13, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-11-13, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
What shinken said. The only explanation I can think of, is that the drow is trying to accomodate LA, having 3 levels, but 4 levels worth of xp. In which case, her saves are wrong, (3rd level: 3,1,1; 4th: 4,1,1)
Also, when rolling attacks with her scythe, is the fighter using her actual attack bonus, or forgetting and using just the +1 listed next to do the scythe itself.
I'm unfamiliar with pathfinder, what is this Combat maneuver defense and bonus? And why is CMD so much higher than CMB? If that was a player choice, perhaps raising CMB will make her more effective in combat?
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2010-11-13, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
CMD is supposed to be higher than CMB. It's kind of like AC versus BAB. Combat Maneuver Bonus is what you add to your d20 roll when trying to perform a special maneuver like a trip or grapple. Combat Maneuver Defense is your AC for the same.
I'm guessing that's an old draft sheet, because I know she's at level 5.Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
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2010-11-13, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Scythe = good. Not sure on why no bow though.
It is always useful to have a ranged weapon (Starknife kind of works).
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2010-11-13, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
It is kinda amusing to see what might be an example of a fighter 'doing it wrong' where that actually refers to the math involved, rather than specific feat selection and such.
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2010-11-13, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
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2010-11-13, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
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2010-11-13, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
She forgot to add her BAB to her CMB. Very important if she's going to use that scythe to trip things.
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2010-11-14, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Yeah, the railroading worked, big accomplishment.
You're really that strapped for control? I guess most of it does depend upon the terrain.
But if you had set the wall just 5 feet back and put a narrow channel there, they would've had to expose themselves by entering the room to get a clear shot and would've had barbarians, fighter, ranger, and gish to deal with from melee, since you mentioned that they had already dispatched their mooks. Seems like that would have both allowed you to get your melee in play and take out their tactical advantage of having a clear shot with guns.
"not entirely unbiased" Long way of saying you're biased in the situation due to being involved with it.
Wait. How/Why did you build it as a controller and then not have already picked out some favored control spells during the building process?
Fighter, spending its feats on something other than maximizing its favored stupid fighter trick?
It sounds more like this particular spell prevented melee attacks from being delivered to the enemy. Which is what fighters do. 5 of the party members are apparently built on the premise of killing things with metal sticks. Warkitty eliminated most of the party from the fight and didn't really contribute much herself afterwards so it was only the Alchemist doing damage to eliminate the foes behind the wall. Which must have been very boring for the rest of the group, heightening the potential for frustration from the situation. And if melee attacks couldn't be delivered, the fighter couldn't well bull-rush the mooks either. Unless they're archery fighters, in which case they have to specialize and sink most of their wealth into that instead of melee... or split their focus so they are bad at both melee and ranged.
So it's a situation born of A. less than optimal spell selection and application or B. the DM deciding to screw the party with the terrain, in which case...
And apparently C. the fighter doing the being a fighter wrong.
Hard to tell sometimes which is being referred to. And of course, you know, bothering to read and remember pronouns.
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2010-11-14, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
We were fighting a pretty heavy melee battle on the other side of the field. I didn't think we wanted to sacrifice melee on that side too. Particularly since we'd already had a door open once we killed the mooks, to reveal more mooks and this boss guy. And there were more doors that could potentially open.
"not entirely unbiased" Long way of saying you're biased in the situation due to being involved with it.
Wait. How/Why did you build it as a controller and then not have already picked out some favored control spells during the building process?
It sounds more like this particular spell prevented melee attacks from being delivered to the enemy. Which is what fighters do. 5 of the party members are apparently built on the premise of killing things with metal sticks. Warkitty eliminated most of the party from the fight and didn't really contribute much herself afterwards so it was only the Alchemist doing damage to eliminate the foes behind the wall. Which must have been very boring for the rest of the group, heightening the potential for frustration from the situation. And if melee attacks couldn't be delivered, the fighter couldn't well bull-rush the mooks either. Unless they're archery fighters, in which case they have to specialize and sink most of their wealth into that instead of melee... or split their focus so they are bad at both melee and ranged.
So it's a situation born of A. less than optimal spell selection and application or B. the DM deciding to screw the party with the terrain, in which case...
And apparently C. the fighter doing the being a fighter wrong.Last edited by WarKitty; 2010-11-14 at 01:04 PM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-14, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Ahh, kinda silly of the Fighter to go to a place where Melee was useless when there were places he could've contributed to the existing melee. I'd gotten the impression from what you said earlier that your party had either mopped up the melee guys on those two fronts or was about to finish mopping them up.
Well originally it was meant to be a summoner because we didn't have enough melee. Then like 3 people switched and I had to redo my build. Then half my control spells ended up not working because our melee complained.
I had only contained about a third of the foes. And we only have 3 true melee people. Our ranger and our sorc/fighter are both quite competent at range. I don't know about the barbarians because they're new and haven't been properly outfitted. They were on the other side of the field.
I'm not sure what spells *to* pick at this point. Control? Sorry you've messed up the melee. Summoning? Gets in the way more than helps. Damage? Makes me way less effective than the rest of the party. Starting to feel like I should just roll a new character if all my spells are going to either cause problems or just not contribute.
Of course, that wouldn't work if your group is stubborn(suggested by the one girl who loves to always argue about what path to take whenever you hit a fork in the road) or not tactically inclined...
In which case I'm coming up mostly empty on what to suggest to you. I mean, if you can convince the meleers to all have at least some reach backup weapons so they can maximize their ability to reach the enemy in, y'know, hallways and in places where the enemy is entangled and only a few of them can hit one at a time....
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2010-11-14, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
Same girl, btw. Yeah most of the problems are around 1 player. Sucks sometimes, but...well there's more going on than just the game, we're trying to help her deal with some stuff as a group of friends. I just end up venting here sometimes because it does get frustrating.
I had smacked the guys on the other side with a briar web, which entangles and does a rather pitiful amount of damage. They were still within reach of the melee. The barbarians are ill equipped because we rescued them from a slavedriver the session before, so they have whatever items our party could spare. Although in retrospect I should have given one of them my sling, since I don't ever use it.
I'm pretty sure I linked to the wrong sheet. I'm thinking I will suggest reach weapons though. Can you use a reach weapon if there's someone between you and the target?
I should mention the reason I walled of those guys is that guns are *nasty* on mooks. The things have a nasty crit, and when you've got a bunch of mooks with them...I actually saved our alchemist from dying with that wall. DM rolled a 20. Needed an 18 or higher to confirm, and rolled a 15. The cover from the wall was providing a +4 AC.Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2010-11-14, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Opinions on an encounter? (3.PF)
it defintiely seems like there was just too much melee for not enough space in that fight. without other fights to judge on, I'm not sure what else you could really do (of course I'm not a druid expert.)
Would the ranged combatants be able to shoot at the party members if the fighter and alchemist weren't right there at the doorway?
Does the wall provide cover for them if the fighter is next to it?