Core-Only Gish?

[Ryuk01]

Is this feasible and reasonably powerful? I realize Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 10 is a sample build, but are there any better ones?

[Psyren]

Cleric 20
Druid 20

[Evard]

Cleric 20
Druid 20

yep! Or run a gestalt game and have each person play as

Cleric/Rogue
Wizard/Fighter
Sorcerer/Barbarian

Or something like that

[Dusk Eclipse]

A ranger 2/Wizard 3/Eldritch Knight 10/Wiz +5 is not THAT bad, at level 20 you get BAB 16 and 9th level spells, the standard gish.

If the SRD is counted as core a Psywarrior/Slayer is not bad

[Psyren]

If the SRD is counted as core a Psywarrior/Slayer is not bad

If you're going Slayer you may as well ditch Psywar and go Psion instead. Ranger 2/Psion 8/Slayer 10 gets you 9th-level powers and 16 BAB. (Prime candidates for gi****ude are Egoist and Nomad.)

EDIT: gish-itude. Silly filter

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Barbarian 9+, Leadership for a Wizard 7+ who can cast Polymorph on you. That's about the only decently powerful core-only gish spell, and it's not personal range. Cleric with the Magic domain and a Wand of Polymorph is just as good, if not better.

A Gish should have Power Attack (core), Arcane Strike (CW), Practiced Spellcaster (CA, CD), and Leap Attack (CV). He should cast Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Bladeweave, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, and (Greater) Luminous Armor, plus Haste, Mirror Image, Greater Magic Weapon, Shield, and Polymorph, though Draconic Polymorph and Greater Mirror Image are much stronger choices. He needs more than just Eldritch Knight to advance both BAB and spellcasting, Core-only you're stuck with a final build of Wizard 8/ Fighter 2/ EK 10 for the bare minimum +16 BAB and 9th level spells by 20th, and there's no Practiced Spellcaster. Core-only Gish builds are far too lacking in options to make it worth playing over a focused caster or a CoDzilla.

[grarrrg]

Is this feasible and reasonably powerful? I realize Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 10 is a sample build, but are there any better ones?

In Core-Only, there are VERY few Gish options
All Arcane Gishes will want/need Eldritch Knight. Pick one of Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin, add one of Wizard/Sorcerer. Set Eldritch Knight to 10, at least 2 levels of (full Bab choice) and at least 5 or 6 levels of (caster choice). Ta-da! you now have 16+ Bab, and a caster level of 14+.
Paladin 2+/Sorcerer 6+/Eldritch Knight 10 is a decent choice for the Cha synergy (SAVES!)

For Divine Gishes, you can either go Druid 20 (Wildshape for the win!) or Cleric 20 (Divine Power for the win!).

For a more 'Multi-class' Divine Gish, you can't go wrong with some Prestige Paladin. It has 8/15 casting progression with full Bab and d10 hp. You will probably be better off with more levels of Cleric than going the full 15 levels though.
Fighter 1/Cleric 4/Pres-Pala 3/Cleric 5-16 will give 16 Bab, and caster level 18.
Going Pres-Pala 5 and Cleric 14 will lose one caster level, but give an extra Smite Evil (whoo) and a once-a-week Remove Disease (whoo).

[Eldariel]

Barbarian 9+, Leadership for a Wizard 7+ who can cast Polymorph on you. That's about the only decently powerful core-only gish spell, and it's not personal range. Cleric with the Magic domain and a Wand of Polymorph is just as good, if not better.

A Gish should have Power Attack (core), Arcane Strike (CW), Practiced Spellcaster (CA, CD), and Leap Attack (CV). He should cast Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Bladeweave, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, and (Greater) Luminous Armor, plus Haste, Mirror Image, Greater Magic Weapon, Shield, and Polymorph, though Draconic Polymorph and Greater Mirror Image are much stronger choices. He needs more than just Eldritch Knight to advance both BAB and spellcasting, Core-only you're stuck with a final build of Wizard 8/ Fighter 2/ EK 10 for the bare minimum +16 BAB and 9th level spells by 20th, and there's no Practiced Spellcaster. Core-only Gish builds are far too lacking in options to make it worth playing over a focused caster or a CoDzilla.

Compared to anything but full casters though, Core Gishes still perform just fine; you still get GMW, Polymorph, Mirror Image, Mage Armor, True Strike, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Greater Heroism and so on. While you don't have that many buffs, you still have enough to make it work.

But yeah, Ranger 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight is the best you can look at in the long term; that said, Ranger 1/Wizard 5 is a decent entry and around level 10, the Gish tends to perform alright. Lacking Practiced Spellcaster is the single biggest thing screwing over a Core Gish. That hurts some of the key buffs and makes you way more suspectible to Dispels (which are already the bane of Gishes everywhere).

[Endarire]

Human or Gray Elf Ranger1/Wizard5/Eldirtch Knight10/Wizard+X.

[Myth]

The problem with Gishes (especially those out of Core) is that while they do have some mobility/versatility, full attacking is still the inferior option to casting spells. When you take out PrCs like Spellsword (the top of the foodchain IMO when it comes to gishdom), Abjurant Champion, feats like Practiced Spellcaster and Arcane Strike, your gish will either cast spells anyway, or just swing his sword when the enemies are pathetic (but that's not necessary if there's other melee types in the party anyway).

I'd advise going for a Rogue/Assassin/Shadowdancer build instead. It gets great mobility and some spells while still using melee most of the time. Just avoid Laugh Attack.

[gbprime]

your gish will either cast spells anyway, or just swing his sword when the enemies are pathetic (but that's not necessary if there's other melee types in the party anyway).

That's what optimization is for.

A good gish will channel spells through his weapon, proc bonus damage with his melee attacks, polymorph into something even more lethal, and/or make use of Whirling Blade to turn his pumped up melee attack into an AoE attack. The reserve feat Minor Shapeshift makes great gish action too, as do spells like Displacement and Heart of Earth.

[dspeyer]

There's monstrous gishes, like driders, raksashas and coatls. They're weak by normal gish standards, but have special abilities that make up for some of it. They improve greatly with la buyoff and truly shine in gestalt.

[Mando Knight]

In Core-Only, there are VERY few Gish options
All Arcane Gishes will want/need Eldritch Knight. Pick one of Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin, add one of Wizard/Sorcerer. Set Eldritch Knight to 10, at least 2 levels of (full Bab choice) and at least 5 or 6 levels of (caster choice). Ta-da! you now have 16+ Bab, and a caster level of 14+.
Paladin 2+/Sorcerer 6+/Eldritch Knight 10 is a decent choice for the Cha synergy (SAVES!)

My favorite is the Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 because of its massive bonus to all saves, and a free minor heal. You can actually dump Wis for this build since you never reach a level where the Paladin gains spellcasting, and Paladin also grants you a minor bonus to hit/damage once per day and a free (minor) healing ability once per day. You can "boost" it to Pal 4/Sorc 6/EK 10 for additional BAB, HP, and Turn Undead (as well as increased damage from Smite and healing from Lay on Hands); but TU is best used with Divine Shield/Might in this case (AC/damage boost for Cha rounds for one TU use!), rather than as straight up Turning.

[Eldariel]

My favorite is the Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 because of its massive bonus to all saves, and a free minor heal. You can actually dump Wis for this build since you never reach a level where the Paladin gains spellcasting, and Paladin also grants you a minor bonus to hit/damage once per day and a free (minor) healing ability once per day. You can "boost" it to Pal 4/Sorc 6/EK 10 for additional BAB, HP, and Turn Undead (as well as increased damage from Smite and healing from Lay on Hands); but TU is best used with Divine Shield/Might in this case (AC/damage boost for Cha rounds for one TU use!), rather than as straight up Turning.

The principal issue with Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 is that it never gets 9th level spells. That makes it decidedly mediocre. It works out beautifully out of Core with Spellsword > Abjurant Champion > Sacred Exorcist giving you full casting thanks to those two Pally levels, and gaining you further Cha synergies but in Core...meh. Overall, you kinda really want to make your Gishes Wizards in Core for that very reason. There's, notably, Shapechange, Time Stop, Astral Projection, Disjunction and Foresight which are all very potent in the hands of a Gish (Time Stop; the ultimate buff machine - Shapechange; the ultimate buff - Astral Projection; immortality - Disjunction; necessity for defeating true casters - Foresight; Never Be Flat-Footed).

And same really goes for all the lower levels of spells; they all bring an array of new tools that are insanely potent and not having access to them just bites (Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Dimensional Lock, and hell, Iron Body on 8; Spell Turning, Instant Summons, Plane Shift, Sailor Greater Teleport, Ethereal Jaunt on 7; Greater Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Field, Globe of Invulnerability, Contingency. Greater Heroism on 6, etc.). That's why I find the minimalistic approach of having one level in full BAB followed by 5-6 caster followed by full EK followed by 2 more of caster to get 9s ASAP to be optimal. Then the last level can provide the 16th point of BAB.

[Myth]

That's what optimization is for.

A good gish will channel spells through his weapon, proc bonus damage with his melee attacks, polymorph into something even more lethal, and/or make use of Whirling Blade to turn his pumped up melee attack into an AoE attack. The reserve feat Minor Shapeshift makes great gish action too, as do spells like Displacement and Heart of Earth.

Guess you missed the part before the one you quoted?

When you take out PrCs like Spellsword (the top of the foodchain IMO when it comes to gishdom), Abjurant Champion, feats like Practiced Spellcaster and Arcane Strike, your gish will either cast spells anyway, or just swing his sword when the enemies are pathetic

or the part where the OP asked for a Core only Gish build?

[Mando Knight]

The principal issue with Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 is that it never gets 9th level spells. That makes it decidedly mediocre.

On the other hand, if you're considering a core-only arcane gish, you're probably not looking for maximum optimization anyway, so missing out on some spells you only get at levels 18+ won't hurt you too much.

On the other other hand, Sorc/Wiz 9/Barb 1/EK 10 is better spells-wise, grants 2 extra skill points (8 if you take Barbarian at first level, but then you need to spend 2 points if you want to be able to read), and a synergy with Tenser's Transformation. (Rage doesn't grant Enhancement bonuses)

[true_shinken]

grants 2 extra skill points (8 if you take Barbarian at first level, but then you need to spend 2 points if you want to be able to read)

Nah, not at all. 3.5 added a silly rule that if you multiclass, you learn to read.
'The dragon blood, flowing through my veins... I... I... I can read!'

[Psyren]

Nah, not at all. 3.5 added a silly rule that if you multiclass, you learn to read.
'The dragon blood, flowing through my veins... I... I... I can read!'

That is far from the silliest ability enabled by dragonblood.

[Mando Knight]

Nah, not at all. 3.5 added a silly rule that if you multiclass, you learn to read.
'The dragon blood, flowing through my veins... I... I... I can read!'

...So it did. If that includes prestige classes, then the illiteracy probably ranks as one of the stupidest restrictions ever.

[Eldariel]

On the other hand, if you're considering a core-only arcane gish, you're probably not looking for maximum optimization anyway, so missing out on some spells you only get at levels 18+ won't hurt you too much.

But missing out on the best Gish-spells kinda sucks I mean, Time Stop basically means you get to start every encounter with any buffs you desire, for example. And not having 16 BAB kinda sucks too since with all the buffs, even the last iterative can hit and it's quite the damage multiplier. Sure, it's all only relevant on 20 but if we consider the level 20 build...well, they're the considerations. It really scales quite decently.

Tho yeah, Barbarian is an incredibly solid option too; Fast Movement is v. good early on and Rage gives you an extra "spell" each day. It has less skills and a worse list than Ranger tho which is why I prefer Ranger; Ranger 2 gets you free Rapid Shot which nicely gives you an extra option. Rapid Shot + Buffspells is about the best you can do with a bow in Core anyways and you get that without any of the PBS/Precise non-sense normal characters need.

[Last Laugh]

...So it did. If that includes prestige classes, then the illiteracy probably ranks as one of the stupidest restrictions ever.

Pff, Illiteracy grants immunity to several dangerous spells. all you need is some wizard chump to translate stuff for you and you will be UNSTOPPABLE barb20 all the way.
I prepared explosive runes!
I really wish I could have my sorcerer give up the ability to read....

[Eldariel]

Pff, Illiteracy grants immunity to several dangerous spells. all you need is some wizard chump to translate stuff for you and you will be UNSTOPPABLE barb20 all the way.
I prepared explosive runes!
I really wish I could have my sorcerer give up the ability to read....

There is a trait for that.

[Volos]

yep! Or run a gestalt game and have each person play as

Cleric/Rogue
Wizard/Fighter
Sorcerer/Barbarian

Or something like that

...gestalt isn't core.

[Amphetryon]

In 'Psionics is Core' game, Wilder 20 makes a serviceable and very simple gish.

[Last Laugh]

There is a trait for that.

Thanks Eldariel!

[Tokuhara]

No love for Bard here? It's a gish in a box for cryin' out loud!

[Coidzor]

No love for Bard here? It's a gish in a box for cryin' out loud!

Core-Only though, it's not as impressive as it could be. Bard only really shines once you get out of core and it can specialize.

[Tokuhara]

Core-Only though, it's not as impressive as it could be. Bard only really shines once you get out of core and it can specialize.

It's still essentially a gish in a box tho

[Felhammer]

No love for Bard here? It's a gish in a box for cryin' out loud!

I've always seen the Bard as a Rogue-Mage, not a Fighter-Mage :)

[Psyren]

In 'Psionics is Core' game, Wilder 20 makes a serviceable and very simple gish.

Paladin 2/Wilder 18 is decent as well. MWP, Heavy armor and shields (which don't interfere with your manifesting) and you get your primary stat to saves, plus a boost to BAB and detect evil/good.