Undead druid?

[randomhero00]

Would you allow this in your campaign? the philosophy being that death and undeath exist, therefor they are natural. I know this goes against RAW. I know there's homebrew, I'm not asking about that. I'm wondering your opinions and counter arguments before I bring it up with my DM.

Basically I'd like to be a sentient, free willed, undead...that's a druid and can wildshape into undead animal forms. Probably neutral evil. Worships the winter/death cycle of nature. Has an undead animal campanion.

[Volos]

It's called a Blighter, and I have allowed it before. Even once in a neutral (not quite evil) party. She had to hide her nature, which was very very difficult, but it worked for a while.

[randomhero00]

It's called a Blighter, and I have allowed it before. Even once in a neutral (not quite evil) party. She had to hide her nature, which was very very difficult, but it worked for a while.

Blighter, homebrew or from a book? Never heard of it before.

[WarKitty]

The Blighter doesn't sound quite like what the OP was asking for. The blighter is more of an anti-druid that's focused on destroying nature. Whereas this sounds more like a druid focused on a different aspect of nature.

Personally...it would depend on how good a backstory the player could spin.

Edit: Blighter is Complete Divine

[gooddragon1]

Would you allow this in your campaign? the philosophy being that death and undeath exist, therefor they are natural. I know this goes against RAW. I know there's homebrew, I'm not asking about that. I'm wondering your opinions and counter arguments before I bring it up with my DM.

Basically I'd like to be a sentient, free willed, undead...that's a druid and can wildshape into undead animal forms. Probably neutral evil. Worships the winter/death cycle of nature. Has an undead animal campanion.

Uncarnate Druid

Questionably balanced. Then again, so are regular druids.

[subject42]

I think it's Eberron that has a faction called the Children of Winter or something like that. It might be worth checking out for help digging up fluff-based justification.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Libris Mortis has feats for druids that may be useful. And no, a Blighter is not what you are looking for, not even close.

[Urpriest]

There's a feat: Corrupted Wild Shape in Libris Mortis that does precisely what you're looking for. Blighter is less worthwhile, but I suppose some builds might be able to spare the levels but not the feat.

[randomhero00]

Libris Mortis has feats for druids that may be useful. And no, a Blighter is not what you are looking for, not even close.

eh does it allow them to be undead though and provide the fluff/rp reasons?

Personally I think it makes perfect sense. The druid is the ultimate predator like class, its not a far jump to want to become closer to death.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wasn't there a Druid Variant in some Dragon magazine that was just this?... Wild Reaper or some such?

[Optimator]

While thematically it doesn't make a lick of sense, it is certainly possible. Were I DMing and a player wanted to do this, they'd better have a hell of a reason and they better understand they are an aberrant Druid. But yeah, I guess I'd allow it with those things understood.

Aren't there feats for undead wildshaping somewhere? Hell, look at the sample Walker in the Wastes!

[Zen Monkey]

the philosophy being that death and undeath exist, therefor they are natural.

I'm not clear on this part. Everything everywhere is natural, because it exists? What is unnatural then? I'd have to say that undead are unnatural, because it is a magically-caused state that is not part of the normal life cycle.

I'd would think the roleplay requires a special sort of not-dead that isn't essentially an animated zombie. Something like a ghost would work better, for a person who died and whose spirit lingers on to protect an area. 'Rotting corpse' doesn't really mesh well with 'loves sunshine, good with animals.'

[randomhero00]

I'm not clear on this part. Everything everywhere is natural, because it exists? What is unnatural then? I'd have to say that undead are unnatural, because it is a magically-caused state that is not part of the normal life cycle.

I'd would think the roleplay requires a special sort of not-dead that isn't essentially an animated zombie. Something like a ghost would work better, for a person who died and whose spirit lingers on to protect an area. 'Rotting corpse' doesn't really mesh well with 'loves sunshine, good with animals.'

Druids are about nature and the cycles. Death and destruction are very much a part of nature. Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane. Magic is natural too. They use it. Now aberattions and such from other planes would still be considered unnatural. Anything not natural to the material plane.

Druids are essentially guardians of the material plane. But undeath/death IS a part of the material plane.

[Zen Monkey]

Druids are about nature and the cycles. Death and destruction are very much a part of nature. Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane. Magic is natural too. They use it. Now aberattions and such from other planes would still be considered unnatural. Anything not natural to the material plane.

Druids are essentially guardians of the material plane. But undeath/death IS a part of the material plane.

Undead exist, but are created by magic and powered by an extraplanar source (negative energy). Magic missiles and glitterdust also exist, but are not natural. Otherwise, they'd just be called 'science' and not 'magic.' It's a little strange to say that the natural life cycle of an animal is: born or hatched, then grows up and reproduces, then grows old, then dies, then a wizard comes along and crushes up a gem and reanimates them with a spell.

[randomhero00]

Undead exist, but are created by magic and powered by an extraplanar source (negative energy). Magic missiles and glitterdust also exist, but are not natural. Otherwise, they'd just be called 'science' and not 'magic.' It's a little strange to say that the natural life cycle of an animal is: born or hatched, then grows up and reproduces, then grows old, then dies, then a wizard comes along and crushes up a gem and reanimates them with a spell.

Yes but the Weave, which is animating them and making all magic possible, a wider view if you will, is natural. Druids can do all sorts of magicy stuff. Undead is not much of a leap.

[Urpriest]

Yes but the Weave, which is animating them and making all magic possible, a wider view if you will, is natural. Druids can do all sorts of magicy stuff. Undead is not much of a leap.

Actually, there isn't much Weave-manipulation that Druids can do. They don't get Antimagic field for example, IIRC, and if they get Dispel Magic at all it's later than normal.

[Kondziu]

Still, creating undead is, using words from OotS, "raping the cycle of life with unclean power". Undeath is breaking out of the natural cycle of life, therefore unnatural.

[Coidzor]

Still, creating undead is, using words from OotS, "raping the cycle of life with unclean power". Undeath is breaking out of the natural cycle of life, therefore unnatural.

Well, that last bit about it being unclean and the first bit about rape are hyperbole and setting dependent.

Undead exist, but are created by magic and powered by an extraplanar source (negative energy). Magic missiles and glitterdust also exist, but are not natural. Otherwise, they'd just be called 'science' and not 'magic.' It's a little strange to say that the natural life cycle of an animal is: born or hatched, then grows up and reproduces, then grows old, then dies, then a wizard comes along and crushes up a gem and reanimates them with a spell.

Well, except for the naturally occurring ones which no magical expenditure is necessary to create and the fact that magic is either a field generated by the planet/plane like the electromagnetic field generated by earth or a fundamental part of the natural universe in most of the established settings that deal with the nature of magic at all.

The negative, positive, fire, water, wind, and earth planes are all extremely natural as their confluence is what creates material planes. The material plane and natural world can't exist without creation, destruction, and the primary building blocks.

So, in actuality, owlbears are more aberrations that must be destroyed due to their status as the tortured and constantly in maddening pain creations of drunk wizards (by generic fluff anyway) than revenants and ghosts which occur without prompting from an external source after death.

[Sir Swindle89]

'loves sunshine, good with animals.'

Real men worship Obad-Hai and tell sunshine and any animal to weak to properly defend it's self to shove it.


Aside, It wouldn't be a far streach to say some undead like ghosts are "natural" undead. They come about because of force of will (will is natural) or because of strong emotion (emotion is natural). So it wouldn't be that far of a streach for a person who was a druid in life what was suddenly thrust into one of these situations to become a representative or gaurdian of this part of the "natural" cycle just as he was a gaurdian of nature in a more traditional sense in life.

[Urpriest]

As guardians of nature, Druids will not necessarily support undead, since even "naturally occurring" undead are formed by the desires and life choices of humanoids, which aren't generally part of a non-urban druid's sphere of interest.

That said, there will be many settings where Druids specifically oppose undead. Undead are tied to disease, they aren't part of food chains, they're immortal in a way that few natural things should be. All of these are decent thematic reasons for druids to oppose undead. On the other hand, a more Celtic of Voudoun society would probably contain druids that embraced undeath, seeing it as part of their realm of influence.

Think about it this way: Lords of Madness contains a druid order dedicated to stamping out aberrations, as well as various options that involve channeling the wrath of nature to wipe out such creatures. On the other hand, it also contains the Aberration Wild Shape feat. It's setting dependent. Tell us what druids are ok with in your setting and we can tell you what would be ok for a druid to do.

[Tokuhara]

I actually tried this: Your DM will HATE you.

Frozen + Primal + Corrupted Wildshape on Cryohydra = DMG Hurled at you

[Admiral Squish]

Well, if you're going for a death theme, you could try Child of Winter and ther rest of that chain from the ECS. It's not undead, rather, it focuses on vermin, but it's thematically appropriate for a druid focused on the 'death' part of the cycle of life and death...

[gooddragon1]

As guardians of nature, Druids will not necessarily support undead, since even "naturally occurring" undead are formed by the desires and life choices of humanoids, which aren't generally part of a non-urban druid's sphere of interest.

That said, there will be many settings where Druids specifically oppose undead. Undead are tied to disease, they aren't part of food chains, they're immortal in a way that few natural things should be. All of these are decent thematic reasons for druids to oppose undead. On the other hand, a more Celtic of Voudoun society would probably contain druids that embraced undeath, seeing it as part of their realm of influence.

Think about it this way: Lords of Madness contains a druid order dedicated to stamping out aberrations, as well as various options that involve channeling the wrath of nature to wipe out such creatures. On the other hand, it also contains the Aberration Wild Shape feat. It's setting dependent. Tell us what druids are ok with in your setting and we can tell you what would be ok for a druid to do.

You guys really ought to look at the uncarnate druid link I posted. It's probably exactly what he's asking for.

[gorfnab]

A Druid/ Planar Shepherd with the chosen planes of Mabar or Dolurrh would fit for an undead focused druid.

[Fhaolan]

You're loading a lot onto the term 'natural'. This is actually a standard trick used in marketing (and occult) debates.

Scientifically anything that can be proved emphirically is 'natural'. If something provably happens, or exists, it by definition is 'natural'. Therefore it is perfectly valid for a foodproduct that includes large amounts of polymer to be labeled 'all natural' because polymers exist therefore they are natural. In occult debates, something can only be 'supernatural' if it cannot ever happen, or can be proven to not exist, which invalidates the debate.

In a world where undead exist, they are by this definiton 'natural'. Using the same logic, magic is natural, gods are natural, even the creatures from the Far Realms are 'natural', simply because their existance can be proven (in game of course).

I've seen the term 'subnatural' thrown around a bit to cover this. This being the subset of 'natural' that does not include what used to be called 'supernatural'.

In other words, using 'natural' to define a Druid is a bit of a red herring when you're willing to mess around with the term 'natural' like that.

In the same way it's possible to use the term 'living rock' and then insist on that particular rock having biological processes.

[Milo v3]

Has anyone here heard of "Frank and K"? They wrote the sourcebook "Tome of Necromancy" and "Book Of Elements". Inside of them it states that Negative energy is basically an element (Just as fire and water). Also undead are just living people animated by negative energy, and "The Living" are just dead people animated by positive energy.

[Alleran]

Forgotten Realms has a Druid Lich by the name of Lossarwyn (IIRC). However, although he says that he draws power from nature rather than a deity, it's actually a god fulfilling his requests (which one is unknown, and NDA'd as far as I'm aware).

[Psyren]

Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane.

They sort of are; at least their energy is.

[Coidzor]

They sort of are; at least their energy is.

The problem with that as a criterion is that positive energy is the energy of living creatures. And also from another plane. And the natural world is made up of the four elements blended together. and also from 4 other planes. :/

[Lev]

Druids are about nature and the cycles. Death and destruction are very much a part of nature. Undead exist naturally. They aren't from another plane. Magic is natural too. They use it. Now aberattions and such from other planes would still be considered unnatural. Anything not natural to the material plane.

Druids are essentially guardians of the material plane. But undeath/death IS a part of the material plane.

So you're saying that druids cannot exist on other planes?

I'd argue that a virus isn't alive.