Pathfinder Monk Killer

[DizzyD]

I'm joining this arena style game where there will be some PvP as well as PvMonster. I've attempted these type of games before and they never seem to work because there always seems to be a dominate class, but the game in question seems to have been thought out quite well and there are some particular that seem to be in place for good reason.
Anyway, from the looks of it, the monk seems like its still going to be a dominate class and I want to build a character that will answer those monks. The char gen rules are as follows.

20 Point Buy
Max HP's every level
Start at 2nd level
Only Martial-based classes are allowed: Antipaladin, Barbarian, Cavalier, Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, Rogue
No traits
Gain 1 Bonus Feat if you include and post background information (on your character info page)
Sources: Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide only.
Races: Aasimar, Drow, Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, Gnomes, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Hobgoblins, Humans, Kobold, Green Orc*, Tieflings
No Gear except a suit of leather armor and your choice of 1 simple melee weapon

I was thinking a Barbarian wielding a longspear with the spirit totem rage feat might be a good build to combat a monk at the first few levels. any other suggestions?

[Grynning]

Class doesn't matter so much; just get a reach weapon. Use 5 foot steps. Never let them use Flurry of Blows (which is a full round action - you make them have to move first, they can't use it). Anyone with a high fort save and decent Con shouldn't have much trouble from Stunning Fist.

The PF barbarian is ok, but keep in mind that PF rules state they lose rage effects if they go unconscious. This can be very bad for you if the DM is strictly following the RAW on this, because when you lose the Con bonus from rage your HP can instantly go negative and kill you. Since this is a low-magic game from the sound of it, that'll be it for you. I'd say that Paladin or Fighter are the best choices for a PF all melee game. The Paladin can heal, has better saves, and can either get a free super-mount or magic weapon abilities at 5th level. Pathfinder really fixed the Paladin, they are so much better than their 3.5 counterparts.

Edit: If he's just starting you with leather armor, everyone's AC is going to suck for a while. Hopefully that's not meant as a permanent state of affairs.

[DizzyD]

They can 5ft step and flurry of blows can't they?

[Telonius]

They can 5ft step and flurry of blows can't they?

That's why you 5-foot step away after you attack with your reach weapon, denying them the opportunity.

[Grynning]

Not if you stay 10 feet away then 5-foot step after each of your attacks. They have to provoke an AoO to get to you if you keep that up.

Pathfinder DOES have a way to counter this tactic, though.

[DizzyD]

That's why you 5-foot step away after you attack with your reach weapon, denying them the opportunity.

Yeah, but all they have to do is take that first AoO and then they I take 5ft step to be able to attack and they take 5ft step to flurry...

[JonRG]

Not if you stay 10 feet away then 5-foot step after each of your attacks. They have to provoke an AoO to get to you if you keep that up.

This sounds awfully familiar...

[Grynning]

Yeah, but all they have to do is take that first AoO and then they I take 5ft step to be able to attack and they take 5ft step to flurry...

This is true. But with a longspear 2-handed and a strength of 18, you'll be doing 1D8+6 with your AoO, and 1d8+9 when you power attack them on your turn. The monk is doing 1d6 plus their likely lower strength mod. They'll be dead before you are.

If you do run into a monk with Step-up, you'll need a way to hit him up close. Ask you DM about armor spikes or having a back up weapon. Or ask if you can take Shorten Grip (from Dragon, attack adjacent foe with reach weapon at -2). Short Haft wouldn't be available until level 3, but you could ask about it too. If the answer is none of the above, take Improved Unarmed Strike as one of your feats (go human if you want to stay straight Barbarian).

[Eldariel]

Barbarian is fine. Fighter too. Even Ranger. Hell, Rogue would kick a Monk's butt. I'd worry about everyone else first; PF Monks are still as terrible as always. Though maxing out Tumble seems like a good idea. And always carry a secondary melee weapon (Greatsword, for example) with your primary being a Guisarme or so. Use your free AoOs, make your standard action attacks, smack them silly.

You could try Tripper build; with the bonus feat, you could be an Orc with CE > Improved Trip on a Barbarian chassis. Rage, profit of your 26 Str and knock people around like the silly sacs of bones they are. Prone people can't approach.


Oh, and don't forget to carry a bow or some ranged weapon. Never know when it's necessary.

[Grynning]

And always carry a secondary melee weapon (Greatsword, for example) with your primary being a Guisarme or so. Use your free AoOs, make your standard action attacks, smack them silly...

Oh, and don't forget to carry a bow or some ranged weapon. Never know when it's necessary.

The guy said his DM is only letting them start with one simple melee weapon. Hence my suggestions above.

Hopefully later on the characters will actually get some gear to speak of, but for the purpose of building the character, Longspear is the best he can get.

[Tvtyrant]

Go Barbarian with maxy strength, pick up improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. Rage grapple the monks to death (your strength will be at least your rage higher then theirs, likely much more).

Your single weapon should be a trident that you throw at the beginning of combat. Those things hurt!

[Eldariel]

The guy said his DM is only letting them start with one simple melee weapon. Hence my suggestions above.

Hopefully later on the characters will actually get some gear to speak of, but for the purpose of building the character, Longspear is the best he can get.

Oh... Wait, what? That's just silly. Well, I guess you gotta go with what you've got then. IUS > Imp. Grapple would give you some melee tools so I guess it's worth considering. Really, just the ability to punch 'em in the face is nice.

[Kilbourne]

If you have access to the Advanced Players Guide, I recommend looking into the Brutal Pugilist archetype for the Barbarian. The Oracle class is also a good choice, especially if you choose the Battle mystery.

[Stephen_E]

The PF barbarian is ok, but keep in mind that PF rules state they lose rage effects if they go unconscious. This can be very bad for you if the DM is strictly following the RAW on this, because when you lose the Con bonus from rage your HP can instantly go negative and kill you. Since this is a low-magic game from the sound of it, that'll be it for you.

The Adv Player Guide has a feat that you don't lose rage when you drop unconcious.
Can't remember the prereqs, but it's a must for any Barbarian above 3-4th level.

Stephen E

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The monk might go grapple, too, meaning he might have a very high CMD. I'd go for straight damage and a decent CMD of your own.

[Mojo_Rat]

If You are going to use the Grapple suggestion some of the others have Made. I suggest the following. First if your group is using the APG go with the Savage grapple variant.

Second Take the Rage bite attack from the core book. It Does two things one, you get to make a Bite attack any time you are attempting to maintain or break free from a grapple and if it hits it ads +2 to your CMB.

So even if you get grappled, you can continue to bite them while trying to break free, Savage grappler at level 2 cuts all the penalties for being grabbed in half and lets you make AOO when a grab is attempted on you even if they have Imp grapple or grab.

This isnt to say grappling barbarian is the best your to go but it would likely be pretty fun.