[3.5] The easy RAW loopholes.

[Ernir]

I think we all know them. The tiny little (apparent) oversights in the rules that give all sorts of wonky results if played straight. I'd like to collect a list of these things (not necessarily just from Core).

I'll start with a famous example: Drowning.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

First, drowning sets the HP of the drowning character to 0, with no exceptions for characters who are beneath 0 HP. Fix: Add exception.
Second, there is no mention of a way to stop drowning once the process has begun. Fix: Add clause about what happens if the character gains the ability to breathe again.


Note: This is not about game balance. It's about game rules that have easily fixed oversights.

Anyone got others?


EDIT: The list so far (formatting be damned for now):

Monks and unarmed strike proficiency:

Monks do not have proficiency with unarmed strikes. The obvious fix is to give it to them.

A number of various game-breaking holes compiled by Doc Roc:

Do I have any others?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447

Ranged attacks and attacks of opportunity:

Ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, but this is specified in the Standard Actions section of the Combat chapter. Full attacks (without distinction between ranged and melee) never provoke AoOs, according to the rules.

The obvious fix: each ranged attack, regardless of action type, provokes.

The zombie packet relay service:

One of my favourite RAW absurdities is this one:

An item can be passed from one end to the other of a line instantaneously.

While the commoner railgun doesn't work -- a thrown object deals damage as an improvised ranged weapon of its size, even though it just travelled faster-than-light before being thrown, there are interesting effects -- as an example, you can implement a basic internet over the 'zombie packet relay service'.

Headers would be transmitted orally (as a free action, no less), while request and response bodies would be transmitted in writing (presumably the server maintains a number of copies of any given resource, then distributes them when requested).

Certain things wouldn't work so well -- for example, none of the websites would be able to carry any kind of user-generated content, so things like wikipedia wouldn't work, but it would still be a fun addition to a parody campaign setting.

The solution would be to impose a limit on how far a chain can pass an object..

A couple of weight problems:

Soarwood weighs more than Darkwood (Soarwood items way 75% normal, Darkwood items weight 50% normal). Yet Soarwood is supposed to be lighter than air and ships made of the stuff can float in air... but Darkwood ones can't. WTF?

JaronK

Holy water and various other alchemical substances weigh less than air.

(flask weighs 1.5 lbs, holy water weighs 1.0 lbs.)

[Signmaker]

Monks do not have proficiency with unarmed strikes. The obvious fix is to give it to them.

[dsmiles]

Monks do not have proficiency with unarmed strikes. The obvious fix is to give it to them.

I don't get it. This is the monk blurb:

Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Here's the weapon description of unarmed strike:

Unarmed Strike
A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike

Emphasis added.
Kind of indicates proficiency, don't you think?

[Doc Roc]

Do I have any others?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447

[Signmaker]

I don't get it. This is the monk blurb:

Here's the weapon description of unarmed strike:

Emphasis added.
Kind of indicates proficiency, don't you think?

Implies =/= Is. Improved Unarmed Strike only turns on no-penalty lethality.

[Synapse]

I don't get it. This is the monk blurb:

Here's the weapon description of unarmed strike:

Emphasis added.
Kind of indicates proficiency, don't you think?

Sadly, no. IUS gives you new forms of damage with unarmed strike, but it does not give you proficiency. Unarmed Strike is a whole beast of weird in 3.5. PF at least went out and said everyone is proficient with unarmed strike, automatically.

[Amphetryon]

I don't get it. This is the monk blurb:
<snip>
Kind of indicates proficiency, don't you think?

To clarify: The problem is that Monks are in the very rare category of base classes without "all Simple weapons" as a Proficiency, and do not include "Unarmed Strike" on their short list of weapons with which they have Proficiency. When the Class abilities were written, it appears that someone forgot that little tidbit.

[Signmaker]

Unmorphed Druids don't either, amusingly.

[lesser_minion]

Problem: You can make a hide check to hide behind a tower shield... which also hides the tower shield.
Solution: Rule that cover granted by your equipment does not allow you to make hide checks.

Some profit-related ones:

Problem: A Wall of Iron cast by an 11th level wizard can be sold as scrap, making about 1,000 gp in profit.
Solution: Impose a duration on the spell -- it's now protected by whatever your merchants do to protect themselves from magic-using cheats and thieves.

Problem: 10ft. poles cost more than quarterstaves and 10ft. ladders.
Solution: All ten foot poles now have hooks on the end.

[Kobold-Bard]

Some profit-related ones:

Problem: A Wall of Iron cast by an 11th level wizard can be sold as scrap, making about 1,000 gp in profit.
Solution: Raise the material component cost to (Caster Level Squared) * 10gp.

Problem: A 10 foot ladder costs less than a ten-foot pole.
Solution: All ten foot poles now have hooks on the end.

Take ranks in Craft (Coin Minting).
Your result is 3x the value of what you put in, so every 3sp you make only cost you 1sp. Free Money.

[Susano-wo]

To clarify: The problem is that Monks are in the very rare category of base classes without "all Simple weapons" as a Proficiency, and do not include "Unarmed Strike" on their short list of weapons with which they have Proficiency. When the Class abilities were written, it appears that someone forgot that little tidbit.

I would consider a person's fists to be natural weapons.

I think that's what the designers were thinking too, which is why they made the special rules to govern non IUS fisticuffs. Otherwise they could have just given a -4 non prficiency penalty and called it a day

so by RAW, you can't really rule on unarmed strikes--that's the oversight. There is nothing saying whether or not the really are considered natural atttacks.

[Poil]

Take ranks in Craft (Coin Minting).
Your result is 3x the value of what you put in, so every 3sp you make only cost you 1sp. Free Money.

Counterfeiting might cause some trouble though.

[Kobold-Bard]

Counterfeiting might cause some trouble though.

You're not counterfeiting, you're crafting actual coins. It's not your fault they require less silver to make than their value.

[Nero24200]

Problem: A 10 foot ladder costs less than a ten-foot pole.
Solution: All ten foot poles now have hooks on the end.

See...this one I never understood. If you cut a ladder in half you do not gain two poles. You gain two perforated planks of wood. I don't see how anyone could sell them as poles afterwards (even assuming you lived in a D'n'D-esc setting where there is apparently demand for them).

[lesser_minion]

You're not counterfeiting, you're crafting actual coins. It's not your fault they require less silver to make than their value.

If the coin's precious metal content is less than its value, then it's counterfeit, practically by definition.

There actually isn't a RAW method for making actual coins, because this isn't Mints & Metallurgists.

See...this one I never understood. If you cut a ladder in half you do not gain two poles. You gain two perforated planks of wood. I don't see how anyone could sell them as poles afterwards (even assuming you lived in a D'n'D-esc setting where there is apparently demand for them).

I actually agree with you, but it's still a bit odd that a ladder would be cheaper. It's also still an issue, since not only are quarterstaves entirely free, but they have most of the same uses as a 10 foot pole, and a Large Quarterstaff is actually over 10 feet in length, so you could theoretically convert one into a ten foot pole by sawing the ends off.

[Oracle_Hunter]

If the coin's precious metal content is less than its value, then it's counterfeit, practically by definition.

There actually isn't a RAW method for making actual coins, because this isn't Mints & Metallurgists.

And yet it is Basketweavers & Bakers? Or Laywers & Lumberjacks?

I was going to point a hole in his argument, but there isn't one. For example, you don't make "counterfeit" longswords using the Craft method - or even "counterfeit" golden idols. This is just an example of RAW throwing up amusing little insanities.

The easiest fix for Craft & Profession skills is to get rid of them; as has been pointed out, this is Dungeons & Dragons after all

I actually agree with you, but it's still a bit odd that a ladder would be cheaper. The profiteering issue actually comes about when people start pulling a similar trick with large quarterstaves.

It's not that hard to trim the "tines" of a ladder and turn it into a pole. I mean, you have a dagger, don't you?

[dsmiles]

A large quarterstaff costs nothing, but is over 10 feet in length (i.e. you can make it into a 10 foot pole by sawing the ends off).

That makes no sense. Why would you want to saw the ends off? The iron (or steel) caps help with the strength of the pole, right?

[lesser_minion]

The easiest fix for Craft & Profession skills is to get rid of them; as has been pointed out, this is Dungeons & Dragons after all

Yes, and keeping one's equipment in good condition is an entirely valid part of that. As is having something meaningful to do when you aren't going into dungeons. Profession (Battlemaster) and Profession (Magic Tutor) can help in that regard.

That makes no sense. Why would you want to saw the ends off? The iron (or steel) caps help with the strength of the pole, right?

As far as I'm aware, most depictions of both quarterstaves and ten foot poles in D&D are unshod -- even if that weren't the case, there's still the question of why anybody would buy a ten foot pole if everything a ten foot pole does can be done with a quarterstaff.

Of course, the other fix you might be able to use is to add a price to quarterstaves and hand one out to every starting character for free.

[Urpriest]

Every picture I've seen of a ten foot pole depicts it made out of metal. Not shod in metal, but made out of metal completely. Can someone point me to one where it's made out of wood?

[dsmiles]

Every picture I've seen of a ten foot pole depicts it made out of metal. Not shod in metal, but made out of metal completely. Can someone point me to one where it's made out of wood?

Yeeesh...talk about a lightning rod...

[lesser_minion]

Every picture I've seen of a ten foot pole depicts it made out of metal. Not shod in metal, but made out of metal completely. Can someone point me to one where it's made out of wood?

Both the 3.0 (page 110) and the 3.5 PHB (page 130) seem pretty clear on this -- compare the 10 foot pole with the tent pegs and battering ram on the same page, and with the various hafted weapons. Then compare it with the pictures of swords and the like.

And the materials to make such a pole would cost four times as much as the pole is supposedly worth, which would only make all of the jokes about pole manufacturers going out of business even worse.

Also, I don't think there'd be much benefit to making the thing from iron, at least not in terms of bending:

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8 lb = 3.62873896 kg.

At a density of 7.0 kg.dm^-3 for cast iron, that gives a volume of 0.519 dm³.

At a length of 30 dm, that gives a cross-sectional area of 0.0173 dm², for a radius of about 7.42 mm.

The second moment of area about the diameter for such a circle is approximately 9.52e-9 m⁴, for a bending stiffness of approximately 1142 Pa.m⁴.

The mass per unit length of the pole is 1.21 kg.m^-1, for a weight of 11.9 N.m^-1 assuming an acceleration of freefall of 9.81 ms^-2

For a uniformly distributed load p of 11.9 N.m^-1 on a beam with bending stiffness EI of 1142 Pa.m⁴, that gives a tip deflection of about 0.10 metres when the pole is held horizontally at one end. That's just from the pole's self-weight.

That seems like it would be just enough to cause problems, even if it's not immediately visible to an observer, but it also doesn't look like it's significantly better than the bending you'd get from making the pole out of wood.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yes, and keeping one's equipment in good condition is an entirely valid part of that. As is having something meaningful to do when you aren't going into dungeons. Profession (Battlemaster) and Profession (Magic Tutor) can help in that regard.

Ha! Why pick something so dangerous as a Profession when Profession (Janitor) pays the same?

And is "keeping one's equipment in good condition" is the reason for Craft, why don't we have rules for equipment decay like you find in Hackmaster?

No, they're just poorly conceptualized rules that really should be axed rather than fiddling around with them to make them work anything like they were "intended."

[Z3ro]

Problem: You can make a hide check to hide behind a tower shield... which also hides the tower shield.
Solution: Rule that cover granted by your equipment does not allow you to make hide checks.

This is a common misconception; nowhere in the hide skill does it actually specify your equipment is hidden with you. Now yes, logically your equipment like your clothes would be hidden, but there's no reason something like a tower shield would be hidden as well.

And yet it is Basketweavers & Bakers? Or Laywers & Lumberjacks?

I was going to point a hole in his argument, but there isn't one. For example, you don't make "counterfeit" longswords using the Craft method - or even "counterfeit" golden idols. This is just an example of RAW throwing up amusing little insanities.

The easiest fix for Craft & Profession skills is to get rid of them; as has been pointed out, this is Dungeons & Dragons after all

The problem with counterfeiting is not in the coins themselves; I can steal actual US paper and presses and make genuine US bills. That's still counterfeiting, however, as I have no authority to do it and if I'm found out it's still a crime.

Depending on how the authority is set up in your game the problem with counterfeiting is not the coins themselves, but the lack of authority to make them.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The problem with counterfeiting is not in the coins themselves; I can steal actual US paper and presses and make genuine US bills. That's still counterfeiting, however, as I have no authority to do it and if I'm found out it's still a crime.

Depending on how the authority is set up in your game the problem with counterfeiting is not the coins themselves, but the lack of authority to make them.

This is only true with fiat money.

D&D assumes that 1 GP has exactly 1 GP worth of gold in it - this is why ancient Atlantian GP are fully convertable into contemporary coinage. You can change this, of course (I have) but it isn't RAW and it requires you to figure out exchange rates & such.

The amusing part here is that while the idea is obviously wrong ("using craft to makes coins for less than their face value") the steps to get there are hilariously RAW.

(1) I want to make coins, what skill do I use? Well, Craft is used for making physical objects, so let's use that.

(2) When using Craft, I look at the list price of the object (i.e. 1 GP) and "spend" 1/3 of its value on raw materials which I then use to make a perfectly legitimate coin.

Obviously the DM can say "no, you can't use Craft to make a coin" but there is no RAW justification for it - and plenty of RAW justification the other way!

I, for one, am deeply amused

[Z3ro]

This is only true with fiat money.

D&D assumes that 1 GP has exactly 1 GP worth of gold in it - this is why ancient Atlantian GP are fully convertable into contemporary coinage. You can change this, of course (I have) but it isn't RAW and it requires you to figure out exchange rates & such.

The amusing part here is that while the idea is obviously wrong ("using craft to makes coins for less than their face value") the steps to get there are hilariously RAW.

(1) I want to make coins, what skill do I use? Well, Craft is used for making physical objects, so let's use that.

(2) When using Craft, I look at the list price of the object (i.e. 1 GP) and "spend" 1/3 of its value on raw materials which I then use to make a perfectly legitimate coin.

Obviously the DM can say "no, you can't use Craft to make a coin" but there is no RAW justification for it - and plenty of RAW justification the other way!

I, for one, am deeply amused

Yes, the coin would be "worth" 1gp, but you should realize that even gold is fiat currency. I work in finance and realize that many people like to call gold "real" money, but it's just a shiny metal. We assign it a value, just like paper. In D&D terms, that means 1gp is 1gp.

I understand the RAW argument, but my point wasn't that it wouldn't work, just that depending on the authority you'd get in trouble. If the royal treasury is the only one that can mint coins and you go ahead and do it without permission, RAW won't save you.

[Susano-wo]

it took me a while to come around to the RAW craft minting is broken with real coinage arguemtn, but it is indeed creating something from nothing...or at least from less :P

the 10ft pole issue, even aside from the materials used issue, is selling price, not usefulness. a quarterstaff is free, and just about as useful for touching things from far away. The RAW trick w/ 10ft poles is about buying a ladder, breaking it, and selling it for the same price.

by RAW, only a 10ft pole is a 10ft pole, no matter how much you feel your broken ladder resembles it, and by common sense, a broken ladder does not have the same construction value as a 10ft pole, even if it is made of wood], so no one is going to pay the same price

its a fun joike, but it really doesn't work :P

[Ilmryn]

To clarify: The problem is that Monks are in the very rare category of base classes without "all Simple weapons" as a Proficiency, and do not include "Unarmed Strike" on their short list of weapons with which they have Proficiency. When the Class abilities were written, it appears that someone forgot that little tidbit.

The Warblade has a similar problem. According to its description, it is proficient with all simple and martial melee weapons, making them the only class not to be proficent with slings and crossbows...

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yes, the coin would be "worth" 1gp, but you should realize that even gold is fiat currency. I work in finance and realize that many people like to call gold "real" money, but it's just a shiny metal. We assign it a value, just like paper. In D&D terms, that means 1gp is 1gp.

I understand the RAW argument, but my point wasn't that it wouldn't work, just that depending on the authority you'd get in trouble. If the royal treasury is the only one that can mint coins and you go ahead and do it without permission, RAW won't save you.

With all due respect - D&D does not treat gold (or any of its currencies) as Fiat Money.

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500 GP of diamond dust is an actual amount of diamond dust - it doesn't matter if you buy it on sale or not, or with Guilder GP or Florence GP. In fact, RAW does not even contemplate the process or import of minting; considering the above facts it seems unlikely that the rules intended for anything - let alone coinage - to be valued in accordance to supply & demand or any Real World concerns.

Moreover, Craft itself requires you to assign the value of whatever it is you are producing; to say that you produce a coin valued at 1 GP which is not, in fact, worth 1 GP is a paradox.

Now, I'm not saying that some force might not become peeved that you are minting money but none of the D&D Economics contemplates such a concern or even address it in fluff.

[Z3ro]

With all due respect - D&D does not treat gold (or any of its currencies) as Fiat Money.

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500 GP of diamond dust is an actual amount of diamond dust - it doesn't matter if you buy it on sale or not, or with Guilder GP or Florence GP. In fact, RAW does not even contemplate the process or import of minting; considering the above facts it seems unlikely that the rules intended for anything - let alone coinage - to be valued in accordance to supply & demand or any Real World concerns.

Moreover, Craft itself requires you to assign the value of whatever it is you are producing; to say that you produce a coin valued at 1 GP which is not, in fact, worth 1 GP is a paradox.

Now, I'm not saying that some force might not become peeved that you are minting money but none of the D&D Economics contemplates such a concern or even address it in fluff.

By the stricktest RAW, yes, everything in D&D has an inherent value. However, I have to take issue that the rules don't address variance in prices. While they don't specifically mention it, this one falls under the category of "too basic to mention". If there's an iron shortage in a kingdom you're trying to save, all iron-based weapons should cost more. Having them cost their usual price and saying "the rules don't address this situation" is ridiculous. The game is unplayable with that level of RAW adherence.

[lesser_minion]

And is "keeping one's equipment in good condition" is the reason for Craft, why don't we have rules for equipment decay like you find in Hackmaster?

Players can learn the skills needed themselves, or retain someone who has the relevant skills -- thus, there's an in-game justification for the fact that their weapons aren't decaying. Even if nobody has come up with actual weapon deterioration rules that can be used without driving everyone insane, it's nice that the game at least allows groups to pay lip service to the issue, rather than acting as if it doesn't exist -- and equipment can always be damaged intentionally.

And Profession (battlemaster) is likely to be more fitting for Warblade McFighterpants than Profession (janitor), isn't it?

On top of that, the Craft and Profession rules are a handy way to adjudicate anything that a DM happens to think might be important in her setting that isn't already covered by the skill rules.

And, you know, a way for characters to make money and do something in their downtime, instead of sitting there twiddling their thumbs.