How to de-buff using melee attacks. (3,5)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok, I know that using two-weapon fighting for sheer damage output is sub par, even when increasing the output by adding sneak attack, skirmish, etc,

This may sound disheartening; but as someone (I think is Person_man, but I don't remember exactly who )the extra attacks issued by two-weapon fightings are extremely useful to force saves, debuffs, etc.

So what are the ways to do that... of the top of my head I just remember Staggering strike... and... some effects such as the sudden stuning weapon propriety.

So what ways do melee have to become debuffers? (preferably using feats, class abilities or similar)

[Keld Denar]

Um, most of the good debuffs come from bludgeoning weapons. Three Mountains and Brutal Strike are both pretty decent. There is also optimized Intimidate, which can be combined with Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) and maybe Imperious Command to trigger fear on attacks and charges. High Sword Low Axe is a weapon style feat in CWarrior that trips people when you TWF them, but is really feat intensive.

Also, there are weapon enhancements like Slowing, Enfeebling, Energy Draining, etc. The more attacks you make, the more likely you are to trigger one since most work off either a crit hit or a failed save.

[gbprime]

Eilserv School is another option. Two hits from a staff and you get to set off a charge in the staff as a free action. Use one that has a Dispel or Greater Dispel loaded.

[Amphetryon]

Tripping is also at least a pseudo-debuff that's a popular choice for melee.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Hexblades and Paladins of Tyranny are excellent melee debuffers, though most of their ability to do so comes from things outside of direct combat.

[Morquard]

Don't rogues have that ACF where they can trade sneak attack bonus for a AC-debuff? Forgot the name, but think it was in PHB2

[Person_Man]

TONS of classes and prestige classes offer what you're looking for. Pretty much anything with full progression magic, maneuvers, psionics, vestiges, or soulmelds.

You might also want to take a look at the melee combo guide, which covers Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Daze, etc, and their respective feats.

[Godskook]

The two that come to my mind fastest are:

Touch of golden ice(from BoED)

Thunderstep boots(from MoI)

[SurlySeraph]

There are numerous Stunning Fist-enhancing feats, though few of them are all that great.

Bind Vestige (Focolor) lets you inflict a save penalty in an aura around you; there are builds that stack that with the Blackguard and Paladin of Tyranny auras, Hexblade Dark Companion, and other things to give quite high penalties.

There are a few feats that let you daze or nauseate people you hit (allowing a Fort save); there's Three Mountains, Anvil of Thunder, and some Shifter-specific one. If you have a lot of feats to spare, you could combine them with Aptitude weapons so that anyone you hit twice needs to make 3 Fort saves or lose their action.

Weapon enhancements are often the best way to go about it. Wounding + Marrowcrushing (BoVD) does 2 Con damage per round for a +5 enhancement cost. A weapon with the Supression psionic property casts Dispel Psionics on every hit, though not at a very high bonus.

Don't rogues have that ACF where they can trade sneak attack bonus for a AC-debuff? Forgot the name, but think it was in PHB2

Sounds like Ambush Feats, which let you trade SA dice to deal an effect to targets you hit. The best one is almost definitely Staggering Strike. There's also Terrifying Strike and Sickening Strike (give up some damage to give someone -4 to saves? Deal!), Dragonfire Strike (replace SA damage with energy damage. If you interpret it as letting you do that much energy damage to things that are immune to sneak attack, it's great. If not, not so much), and various others.

[Darrin]

So what ways do melee have to become debuffers? (preferably using feats, class abilities or similar)

This is one of my favorite melee debuffers: Not called the GREAT Club for nothing.

There are probably a couple other effects you could stack on... maybe even get really absurd with an Aptitude great club and something like Boomerang Daze.

[The Shadowmind]

Destruction Devotion reduces AC every time the target gets hit by you. I think this last for 1 minutes, and every attack within that minute cause the reduction, but the wording is a little iffy.
CChampion.

[Coidzor]

It's not using a melee attack, but you can use fear to debuff as a meleer. Intimidating Rage, Imperious Command, Never Outnumbered, Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels+dungeoncrasher on a fighter chassis, getting the fearful armor enhancement for move-action intimidate...

Also poison with the investiture of a feat (master of poisons, swift action poison application so you can still do full attacks or charge or what have you) and whatever necessary to get an economical poison supply.

[Jarian]

Well, if you're willing to soak the Stunning Fist requirement, Falling Star Strike and Unbalancing Strike from Oriental Adventures can arguably trigger on every unarmed attack you make. Save DC is wis-based, but still, that's a lot of save-or-sucks a round.

[herrhauptmann]

ToB, exorcism of steel.
Don't have a copy handy right now, but I believe it reduces the targets damage output for the rest of the encounter. Unfortunately, it might also be a standard action, so not something you can use to make use of otherwise useless iteratives.

[JaronK]

A nasty build I made up a while ago did this. The basic concept is a Necropolitan Zhentarium Fighter 9/Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Warblade X (using Blood in the Water, along with any maneuver that gives more attacks) wielding a pair of Keen Enfeebling Lifedrinker Kukris. You then take the full Eviscerator line of feats, along with Imperious Command and the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

The result is that every time you hit, the target takes two negative levels. Every time you critically hit, the target takes 1d6+2 Str damage, and all living enemies in the area are shaken for one minute. When everyone's shaken, you can spend a swift action to make everyone immediately cower for that minute... and keep hacking away. Nicely enough, many of your tricks still work on enemies immune to critical hits (Blood in the Water, Eviscerator).

That's a heck of a lot of debuffing. You just pounce around the battlefield draining strength and levels, and anyone vulnerable to fear is effectively just terrorized for the whole battle. Note that you'll be weak to constructs and undead who don't care about negative levels, so you should work with your party to make sure you specialize against them (a Cleric can do this easily against undead... consider a Lyre of the Restful Soul and a Rod of Defiance for this purpose).

JaronK

[Thurbane]

Also poison with the investiture of a feat (master of poisons, swift action poison application so you can still do full attacks or charge or what have you) and whatever necessary to get an economical poison supply.

It's only a minor debuff, but a weapon made of Gehennan Morghuth-Iron (A&EG p. 14) delivers a weak poison (DC 12, damage 1 DEX/1d4 DEX) on every hit. The save is pathetically low, but does have the bonus that you never run out of poison, or have to spend time applying it.

I also think the Intimidating Strike feat isn't too bad. True, it can't worsen a frightened state, and you can't use it on a full attack, but I still find it OK for times when you simply can't get a full attack in...

For weapon enhancements, I'm quite fond of Stunning Surge, since it actually scales, and if you have good CHA, you get multiple uses a day. There's also the broken/good version in DMG 2...

[Keld Denar]

Nah, Intimidating Strike is completely outclassed by Dreadful Wrath. IS is simply too restricted.

And the DMGII enchant is Sudden Stunning. Stunning Surge is in the MIC. Similar in that they scale, but Sudden Stunning hits Ref save and Stunning Surge hits Fort. Sudden Stunning is also 1d4+1 rounds, while Stunning Surge is 1 round.

[WinceRind]

Complete Scoundrel has a whole section of feats that let you de-buff using physical attacks with sneak attack.
They're called "Ambush" feats and they let you trade various # of dies of your sneak attack damage for various effects. And then there are feats from other books, including Staggering Strike and what not. And obvious things like Tripping.

[Keld Denar]

I never understood the confusion ambush feat. You hit someone, and they are confused for 1 round, as per the spell. Except...if you actually READ confusion, confusion compulses you to attack whoever attacked you last round. So...you ambush someone, and they are FORCE to attack you back. That seems...counter-intuitive to me.

[Darrin]

I never understood the confusion ambush feat. You hit someone, and they are confused for 1 round, as per the spell. Except...if you actually READ confusion, confusion compulses you to attack whoever attacked you last round. So...you ambush someone, and they are FORCE to attack you back. That seems...counter-intuitive to me.

10% = attack "caster", in this case probably whoever caused the confusion
10% = act normally, i.e., attack whoever just hit you
30% = babble incoherently (waste action)
20% = scree fleeming
30% = attack nearest target, which could be whoever just hit you

At worst, it's 50/50 they'll attack you back.

So... pair this up with a Knight cohort, whack 'em with Knight's Chellenge/Test of Mettle? Or confusing weapon + wand chamber + swift invisibility wand?

[Thurbane]

And the DMGII enchant is Sudden Stunning. Stunning Surge is in the MIC. Similar in that they scale, but Sudden Stunning hits Ref save and Stunning Surge hits Fort. Sudden Stunning is also 1d4+1 rounds, while Stunning Surge is 1 round.

Not RAW, but it's my heartfelt belief that Sudden Stunning was supposed to be the MICs conversion/nerfing of Sudden Stunning, the same way they converted/nerfed Ring of Spellbattle and a couple of other items. I think they messed up by changing the name.

No RAW to back that up, but there is no way known I would ever use the Sudden Stunning enhancement in my games. A scaling attack that attacks what is generally the worst save, for less than a +1 cost? Being stunned for 1d4+1 rounds generally = death.

10% = attack "caster", in this case probably whoever caused the confusion
10% = act normally, i.e., attack whoever just hit you
30% = babble incoherently (waste action)
20% = scree fleeming
30% = attack nearest target, which could be whoever just hit you

At worst, it's 50/50 they'll attack you back.

Keep reading the rest of the spell description:

Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes.

Although technically, I think the confusion effect comes into play after you attack, so the victim wouldn't automatically target you for it's next attack.

[Esser-Z]

Two words: Soul Eater

[Silva Stormrage]

I am not sure this is what you are asking for since its a spell that does it. But if you get Blade of Pain and Fear and apply fell shaken to it and add persist to it than you can have a touch attack that can be used like a normal weapon (if you are a caster get arcane disciple (competition domain) for divine power) that deals low damage but forces a will save or be frightened for 1d4 rounds, but with fell shaken they are shaken for a minute no save. So two hits and anyone not immune to fear is running for a minute.

If you are a Dread Necromancer you can get divine metamagic (I am aware it doesn't work with arcane spells even if you have rebuke arcane disciple spells count as divine), get both blade of pain and fear and divine power with arcane disciple and divine metamagic persist spell them both AND share them with your familiar you get some crazy fear going on. I think since this build is completely feat starved you can get it by lvl 9. But its worth it, with haste (firesouled, useful for more turn attempts + normal dread necro cha synergies) + full bab from divine power + Dread Necro fear arua or be shaken = 3 attacks from your familiar and you each. And if they fail their will save vs your 5ft fear arua each touch attack is an insta fear for a minute.

Of course if you actually wanted non magical melee option I have no Idea

[ericgrau]

The nice thing about triggering a save per attack instead of per round is that the save DC can be pathetically low and your target is still bound to fail. More specifically, your chance of success is as follows:

{table] | Hits | | | |
Per Hit | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5
5% | 5.0% | 9.8% | 14.3% | 18.5% | 22.6%
10% | 10.0% | 19.0% | 27.1% | 34.4% | 41.0%
15% | 15.0% | 27.8% | 38.6% | 47.8% | 55.6%
20% | 20.0% | 36.0% | 48.8% | 59.0% | 67.2%
25% | 25.0% | 43.8% | 57.8% | 68.4% | 76.3%
30% | 30.0% | 51.0% | 65.7% | 76.0% | 83.2%
35% | 35.0% | 57.8% | 72.5% | 82.1% | 88.4%
40% | 40.0% | 64.0% | 78.4% | 87.0% | 92.2%
45% | 45.0% | 69.8% | 83.4% | 90.8% | 95.0%
50% | 50.0% | 75.0% | 87.5% | 93.8% | 96.9%
[/table]

So let's say you're at level 10 and monsters are sporting fort saves of +9. You TWF and haste for 5 attacks, maybe 3-4 hit. Even DC 13 (15%) drow knockout poison is has a decent chance of knocking your target out outright. About the same chance as a single DC 18 attack. And that's in addition to your normal damage. Ditto for any other effect that applies a save. So until level 9-10ish the DC 12 suggestion would be very effective. Average monster fort saves go up at the rate of about 1 per level, so likewise so should the DC of whatever you use. NPC saves progress much slower, even in classes with fast fort save progression.

I'd also suggest burning your low AB attacks on touch attacks when possible. Such as tripping.

[ffone]

The effects which are nuts are those with damage-based DCs, like Staggering Strike or (for bull rush bonuses) Knockback.

Staggering Strike is a nice bone to both a ranged rogue (easier to stagger multiple foes) and a melee rogue (a staggered foe can't full attack, making it much easier for the rogue to toe to toe - a staggered foe is also less likely to move out of a flanking position).

[Runestar]

Tome of battle has some maneuvers which inflict a status effect on a successful hit. The one I like most is white raven hammer. Doesn't really do much damage, but stuns on a hit without allowing a save!

Take that, Tarrasque!

[Tokuhara]

I actually love Zhentrim Warrior/Swashbuckler/Crimson Corsair

Seriously, Intimidate and fear are weapons to be wielded as if they were the very blade you wield. Combo this with Daring Fighter, Dread Wrath, Mage Slayer, and Frightful Presence and casters will be shaking in their boots too bad to cast.

[Keld Denar]

Intimidate and fear are weapons to be wielded

I thought it was fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency and fantatical devotion to the pope.

[Tokuhara]

I thought it was fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency and fantatical devotion to the pope.

Twenty points to you, my friend...

But in all seriousness, that build can do serious damage