Need a decision on turn of events (3.5)

[Adamaro]

So, here's the story and I would like to get some insight into how a described situation would turn out in your opinion.

In my generic land there is a powerful dwarven empire. Almost all dwarves are clerics and almost all of them pray to Moradin. In game terms/numbers this would mean tens of thousand of dwarves of whom maybe a couple of hundred are lvl 20 clerics. Only very small part of dwarves bows to other or no gods. Dwarven empire is healthy and strong, but also LG aligned. (meaning they are not like paladins - running around to smite evil, but if they encounter evil, they will intervene)

Several millennia ago, humans stumbled upon higher arts of magic, which most dwarves deem impure, due to the fact that arcane magic is not under any alignment restrictions. A few hundred years ago human sorcerers began to gather in a town of Mogemock, where they formed up a magic school and later, mages guild. Over centuries they became powerful, (wiz batman-like) and have also connected themselves to a very non-good merchants, who, however made very large profits with slavery and black onyx.

A clash happened only weeks ago in a free human city-state of Oregor. A merchant from Mogemock demanded a right to sell slaves there. Local authorities protested, paladins and clerics of St. Cuthbert got involved.

Eventually, batman appeared and virtually bombarded the temples of opposing clerics, killing some and most of paladins. In addition an evil druid of high lvl got mixed into situation (attracted by possibility of destruction of an unnatural creation such as human city) and casualties got high and slave trade was established in Oregor.

Luckily - Dwarven clerics did not get involved in this conflict outright, but evil done here (Or justified action. Wizard only said he wanted equal trading rights for his trading partners) can not be overlooked. If dwarves go against this batman, entire mage guild will go against them.

This may mean a major magic battle, slightly in favour of the dwarves - they are older, know their magic better, have gods on their side and acess to minor artifacts.

Still, their enemies are batmans.

How do you think this would turn out?

[gbprime]

what do you mean by "a batman" ?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


"Batman" is a party role, not an all-powerful destroyer of continents.

[kestrel404]

In my generic land there is a powerful dwarven empire. Almost all dwarves are clerics and almost all of them pray to Moradin. In game terms/numbers this would mean tens of thousand of dwarves of whom maybe a couple of hundred are lvl 20 clerics. Only very small part of dwarves bows to other or no gods. Dwarven empire is healthy and strong, but also LG aligned. (meaning they are not like paladins - running around to smite evil, but if they encounter evil, they will intervene)

Unlikely, but OK, it's your world.

A clash happened only weeks ago in a free human city-state of Oregor. A merchant from Mogemock demanded a right to sell slaves there. Local authorities protested, paladins and clerics of St. Cuthbert got involved.

Eventually, batman appeared and virtually bombarded the temples of opposing clerics, killing some and most of paladins. In addition an evil druid of high lvl got mixed into situation (attracted by possibility of destruction of an unnatural creation such as human city) and casualties got high and slave trade was established in Oregor.

Sounds like the Order is going to go postal on the wizards.

Luckily - Dwarven clerics did not get involved in this conflict outright, but evil done here (Or justified action. Wizard only said he wanted equal trading rights for his trading partners) can not be overlooked. If dwarves go against this batman, entire mage guild will go against them.

Umm...the Dwarves don't get involved. They weren't in the fight to start with. The Humans are not invading their territory, or attempting to sell slaves on their lands (unless this city is a Dwarven one?). The Dwarves may desire to get involved, but without some political entity with an obvious RIGHT to do so asking them to step in, they have no Casus Beli - no reason to effectively INVADE this city and place their will over that of the local sovereign government. Without that, the LAWFUL dwarves keep to themselves and go about business as usual, perhaps passing laws to stop trade with that city/nation or otherwise acting indirectly but certainly not starting a war over it.

[AstralFire]

Have you really thought out the implications of that many level 20 spellcasters? Who needs a mundane slave trade when you're a 20th level wizard?

This is pretty much pure rocket tag, too.

[Callista]

Mmhm, I agree; why are they trading slaves? Seems to me you haven't looked at the economic aspects of this. You also mentioned "black onyx"--I'm assuming they're raising undead servants? Why do they even need slaves?

And your players will likely think of this, so you're going to have to come up with answers.

The dwarves have the numerical advantage, and clerics can cancel out a lot of wizardly stuff; antimagic field is a clerical spell, too. Worst comes to worst, and the dwarves hole themselves up in heavily trapped underground warrens, and you better bet they'll be prepared for teleporters.

Realistically, though, both sides will know that the other side could wipe them out given enough luck. At those high levels, a war can be over in ten rounds and result in total destruction. I'm seeing "uneasy truce, subtle politics, and war by proxy" here. Most likely, neither side wants to outright destroy the world.

[AstralFire]

There's only one solution. They make a bunch of giant mechas and have them fight to decide the fate of the world for the next four years.

[Coidzor]

A couple of hundred level 20 clerics? With Miracle and Gate? Going to war?

...Yeah... That would suicidal of that wizard if he made enemies of them.

[Kylarra]

There's only one solution. They make a bunch of giant mechas and have them fight to decide the fate of the world for the next four years.

Watch me stay cleverly hidden as a windmill.

[Bayar]

It might turn into a cold war with all those rockets. Neither side would want to shoot first b/c of MAD. Maybe the dwarves could make an agreement to rez the dead and the humans pay for it over time ?

[Calmar]

Who is this dude?

[Cog]

Who is this dude?

His name is Inigo Montoya.

You killed his father.

Prepare to die.

(Paraphrasing in jest only, of course. The character's from The Princess Bride.)

[Barlen]

The way I read that is that the slave trader was a merchant, not the wizard himself. The merchant was allied to the wizard and the wizard came in and backed him up. Therefore the wizard doesn't need the slaves and isn't necessarily part of that trade, he is just backing up a friend/ally.

The point about the lawful dwarves not necessarily getting involved unless they had the lawful right to do so should be clarified.
Are the dwarves allied to the town?
Will they see this attack as overpowering the rightful lawful rulers of the town and decide to intervene to restore order even if they have no treaty?

[Adamaro]

@kestrel404

Unlikely, but OK, it's your world.

Please elaborate. I would really like to see what you think of this?

Actually wizards are quite astranged from the world. They have fun with plane-travel, inventing new spells, killing and hunting each-other. Merchants are here because items in Sigil cost a lot of money and because mage guild is LE in its nature. Also not stupid enough to just go and loot the heck out of the world. When a wizard does that, bounty is issued and there are always some headhunters who love some good lvl20 wiz - hunt. (not Bobba-Fett lvl 4 rangers, but lvl 20 wiz muchkins)

@Barlen got it completely right.

The point about the lawful dwarves not necessarily getting involved unless they had the lawful right to do so should be clarified.
Are the dwarves allied to the town?
Will they see this attack as overpowering the rightful lawful rulers of the town and decide to intervene to restore order even if they have no treaty?

Dwarves are not allied to town, they are more of a observers - they have a small temple just outside human town. This attack could simply be seen as replacing NG leading party of human experts, paladins and clerics of Pelor with puppets of evil merchants. I am thinking that obligations which clerics have should push dwarves into acting against such changes.

[FelixG]

They are lawful though...they may see evil being done but are they willing to risk a war which will, by the sound of it, kill everyone?

They would be invading another nation because one batman wizard went to town on a...well...town!

What they might do though is play a proxy war with them, say bribe the local orc tribes or other X random humanoid into going in to fix things, pay them in human monies or magical boons like rez or cures for people so that things cant effectively be traced back to dwarven intervention

Seeing evil and riding in to save the day doesn't quite work when your doing it as a whole nation when risking the destruction of both sides.

While the dwarves only worship mordin, those outer plane jaunting wizards would have had plenty of time to forge lots of evil aligned friendships with powerful beings.

To me it doesnt seem like the dwarf clerics would want to screw the world up so horribly over one little town