[3.5] Bard Feat Suggestions

[fortesama]

Last story ground to a sudden halt... again. Looks like our DM is taking this online and he's considering letting me join. He did warn me that the group is more low-op than what i'm used to so i'm thinking on rolling a support bard this time so i can do my stuff without hogging the spotlight too much. I've read the bard handbook and i'm leaning towards maximizing the effects of inspire courage. i have these for feats for now. suggestions are welcome. Assume Human, no flaws allowed. Probably starting at around ECL 6 not sure where to finish but let's say we may finish at around 10. Build feats to 20 anyway just in case. Thinking of getting into sublime chord in case we go high enough.

Feats
1:Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration
3:Melodic Casting
6:Song of the Heart
9:Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon)
12:Extend Spell
15:Lingering Song
18:Lyric Spell

Edit: Thanks for the suggestions so far. I've updated my feat selections a bit.

[Keld Denar]

I like Lyric Spell. Burn X+1 daily music attempts to cast a spell you know of level X. Bards get very few spells per day, especially of their highest level, so this really helps give you a bit more longevity. Plus, BM uses are pretty plentiful. You seldom need more than 4-5 a day. Liquidate them

[gbprime]

Lingering Song is decent. Makes Inspire Courage last for 10 rounds after you stop, not just 5. So you can get on with doing other things, like putting your caster level and Use Magic Device to work on the charged staff or two you're carrying around.

[Keld Denar]

Melodic Casting already lets you maintain a song while casting spells and using spell trigger items.

[bannable]

Melodic Casting already lets you maintain a song while casting spells and using spell trigger items.

But with *both* you can sing a song, linger it, sing a second song, and then start casting spells and using spell trigger items. Great for those climactic fights, and duets.

[gorfnab]

Doomspeak, Versatile Spellcaster, Captivating Melody, Sound of Silence, Subsonics, Lyric Spell

[fortesama]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I've updated the list.

Now, I'm wondering: Would a dragonwrought kobold bard be good? And what sovereign archetype would be good to apply since my DM allowed me to add one... yet again.

[elpollo]

Isn't reading guides and asking for forum help kinda gonna not help with the "low-op" part of the opening post? I mean, I know you're buffing the party, but if your problem is you're too powerful why not just stop reading the guides?

[Tyger]

Isn't reading guides and asking for forum help kinda gonna not help with the "low-op" part of the opening post? I mean, I know you're buffing the party, but if your problem is you're too powerful why not just stop reading the guides?

Yeah, this seems a bit counter-intuitive to me as well. A dragonwrought kobold bard maxing out inspire courage and heading into Sublime Chord is hardly "low op"...

What is the makeup of the rest of the party?

I understand, I think, what you are planning here. After all, its not as if you are doing all the damage and getting all the spotlight - you're just making everyone else rock that much harder, right?

Wrong.

If the party knows that the only reason they are walking all over the enemies is because of you, its going to get old fast for them. Not only that, if the DM is planning a low op mid tier game, and you suddenly turn everyone in the party into killing machines, it is going to frustrate him/her.

Have you talked to the DM about what this build is going to be capable of? I know in the game I am running my DFI bard in, the DM was understandably shocked when we started simply steamrolling every encounter, in large part due to everyone getting 4d6 fire damage on every attack - at level three. It made otherwise challenging encounters a cakewalk.

And that was in a relatively high powered and optimized group - Wizard (albeit a blasty one), Druid with wolf companion dropping Entangle like candy, trip-optimized half-giant psy-warrior, and a crusader built for ultimate tankishness.

I suppose that all I am saying is be sure to have a long chat with your DM about this build and its potential effects on a low op game. Because the build you are looking at is the exact opposite of low op.

[Thefurmonger]

+1 to "This sure as hell doesnt sound low op to me"

[nedz]

Some idea of the Op level you are aiming for might be helpful; after all the following might fit perfectly

Feats
1:Toughness, Toughness
3:Toughness
6:Toughness
9:Toughness
12:Toughness
15: Toughness
18:Toughness

Or there again, perhaps not ?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think his plan is to play nice with a low-op party, not to actually be low op.

[elpollo]

Don't forget Skill Focus (Craft: Potpourri) and (Profession: Beggar).

[mootoall]

Some idea of the Op level you are aiming for might be helpful; after all the following might fit perfectly Feats 1:Toughness, Toughness 3:Toughness 6:Toughness 9:Toughness 12:Toughness 15: Toughness 18:Toughness Or there again, perhaps not ?

That's an incredible feat tree. I once played a Fighter like that, and out-damaged the Wizard, Druid and Cleric. Mostly because of the bard buffing me

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I understand, I think, what you are planning here. After all, its not as if you are doing all the damage and getting all the spotlight - you're just making everyone else rock that much harder, right?

Wrong.

If the party knows that the only reason they are walking all over the enemies is because of you, its going to get old fast for them. Not only that, if the DM is planning a low op mid tier game, and you suddenly turn everyone in the party into killing machines, it is going to frustrate him/her.

Ah, but you see, the difference between playing this and, say, playing a mailman that one-shots everything is that the DFI Bard needs a party to buff! The meleers and the bard were made for each other. No matter how much +damage buffs you give the party, on some psychological level the fact that they rolled the damage means it's not yours.

Steamrolling planned encounters, on the other hand, might be an issue, yes.

[nedz]

Ah, but you see, the difference between playing this and, say, playing a mailman that one-shots everything is that the DFI Bard needs a party to buff! The meleers and the bard were made for each other. No matter how much +damage buffs you give the party, on some psychological level the fact that they rolled the damage means it's not yours.

Steamrolling planned encounters, on the other hand, might be an issue, yes.

Another option is to multiclass with something like Fighter. You then get to stand in the line and fight with them, as well as buffing everyone. This is better for being part of the team rather than the guy who pumps everyone else up all of the time. There are obviously stronger builds, but you should be able to build yourself a useful combattant who sings whilst they fight.

You could also go for a rogue/bard for a skill-monkey/buffer. Rogue can of course be changes for scout/monk/whatever.

It really all depends upon what you want, and what Op level the group is at.

[Tyger]

Yeah, what I would suggest in this situation, as optimizing seems to be that the OP would like to do, is to optimize in several ways adequately, rather than just one or two extremely well.

Take Snowflake Wardance and buy a Crystal Echoblade so that you can stand shoulder to shoulder with the other meat-shields.

Take Song of the Heart and DFI so you can buff them and yourself up.

Pick up Improvisation and Glibness so that you can be the party face and do it damned well, as well as a dash of skill monkey.

That way, rather than giving everyone +eleventy billion bonuses to hit and damage, plus throwing +eleventy billion d6 in sonic damage while also hasting them, you are adding a decent amount of damage (though not overpowering), doing some moderate melee damage yourself (though not overpowering) and giving some spell buffs and debuffs (though... you guessed it, not overpowering).

That seems to be what one would expect to see of a well built character in a low op game. Even then, if the game is really low op, you may still be the top contender, but at least you won't make the other players feel like their characters are just places for you to put buffs, and the DM won't have to over CR all the encounters by five.

TL:DR version: Play the bard the way it was originally intended - jack of all trades, master of none.

[Keld Denar]

I'd drop Words of Creation, if I was you. IC is already REALLY strong, and WoC raises that to rediculous levels.

Plus, I dunno how you personally play, but WoC imposes [Exalted] RP restrictions, which I don't like for a bard. You can't be rascaly and rakish if you are worried about falling all the time...

[fortesama]

Does someone in a suit of golem armor get to be buffed by by IC? And the DM already knew what he was getting himself into by inviting me to join their group. He was cool with it and i was surprised that he'd still let me play dragonwrought kobolds with a sovereign archetype on top of that. I'd stick out a lot though so i won't go for it. The impoverished aristocrat with a suit of customized gold-coloured golem armor was already odd enough an addition to their party.

I also forgot about the exalted tag on the words of creation feat so i'm dropping it. updating as appropriate. There goes my concept of a singer with a voice the angels wished they had though...

[Tyger]

Does someone in a suit of golem armor get to be buffed by by IC?

Unless he can't hear you, yes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Silverbrow Human in Dragon Magic doesn't need to take Dragontouched and gains a few other benefits, only losing the bonus skill points. That will save you a feat so you can put DFI and Melodic Casting at 1st level, Song of the Heart at 3rd, and maybe grab Mindsight at 6th since you're not going exalted. You wouldn't be able to get Draconic Heritage with that, but everything could be moved up the list by 3-6 levels.

If you want to go with a Dragonwrought Kobold, you may as well use Prestige Bard since Loredrake + Greater Draconic Rite of Passage will keep you from falling behind in casting until extremely late. Maybe even go with a Harmonious Knight Bardadin with Devoted Performer and Words of Creation. It would depend on how your Harmonious Knight and Bardic Music abilities stack, but something like Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 3/ Prestige Bard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 4/ Sorcerer 1 would still get 9th level spells by 19th level and a +16 BAB at 20th with the Kobold sorcerer boosts. The Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level gives you Draconic Heritage for free instead of a familiar. It's a nice twist on the standard sorcadin gish build, though without Loredrake it won't get 9th level spells by 20th and it's probably going to be feat starved.

Edit:

Does someone in a suit of golem armor get to be buffed by by IC?

Inspire Courage is a Morale effect, which is Mind-Affecting. If the armor makes him immune to mind-affecting effects, it blocks IC, otherwise if he can hear it he gets the buff.

[fortesama]

Unfortunately, it does make him immune to mind affecting. On the plus side, that would stop their evoker from using charm on him "for the lulz".

Please don't ask how he got one.