Druid question

[BIGMamaSloth]

Im pretty new to D&D btw
I liked the fluff of druids but the friends I play with say that there like really underpowered. Kind of a tries to do too many things and fails (somewhat like a monk). I still kind of want to play the druid but would like warning if its truly unplayable.

thanks in advance!

[Eldrys]

Well. It does try everything...and excels massively at it.

It has full casting, one of the most powerful features in the game. It has one class feature better thats a better fighter than a fighter is, and a druid can turn into a melee powerhouse while still having access to spells

[Psyren]

Druids are one of the most powerful classes in the game, and useful at all levels.

Druid Handbook

Plus, you get a pet fighter as a class feature

[Urpriest]

Ok, you're going to get a lot of laughter here, but since you're a Pixie I'll answer in some detail:

Druids are potentially really really powerful. Your animal companion can easily be as powerful as a mediocre fighter by itself. (Riding Dogs for example are quite nice). Wild Shape gives you better stats than the fighter and an easy source of damage, and you can still cast all your spells with the feat Natural Spell. And your spells are really nice: some of the best summoning, battlefield control, buff spells. All in all druids are very powerful, one of the most powerful classes in fact.

[Strife Warzeal]

God no, Druids are top tier classes. They are overpowered beyond hell. Level 6+ you start getting the good wild shapes. (not 100% sure on that) You'll start putting any melee classes to shame. On top of that druids are full spell casters WITH HEALING also. I'm sure others can give you better specifics about druids.

Also monks if raised properly can be decent. IE.) Take the Sacred Fist prestige class, basically a monk with casting.

[Grynning]

Im pretty new to D&D btw
I liked the fluff of druids but the friends I play with say that there like really underpowered. Kind of a tries to do too many things and fails (somewhat like a monk). I still kind of want to play the druid but would like warning if its truly unplayable.

thanks in advance!

What edition are you playing? If it's 3.5, your friend is dead wrong. Druid is actually considered one of the most powerful classes in the game. You only need one stat really high, Wisdom. You can have low strength and dex, which are replaced by shifting into animals with high stats and out-fight most fighters. You have full spellcasting. You have an animal companion, which is basically as good as having a fighter or ranger following you around that you control.

Pathfinder, aka D&D 3.75 reduces the usefulness of wildshape, so you can't dump your Str and Dex anymore, but the class is still very good.

If it's 2nd or 4th edition, well, that's a bit of a different story, but all you have to do is search "Druid" on this forum and you'll find lots of discussion on how good they are, how wildshape should be nerfed in various ways, etc.

Edit: Swordsage'd, a lot, as I should have expected.

[Sinfonian]

I like illustrations, so I've borrowed one from the D&De-motivational posters thread:

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Additionally, they're relatively easy to optimize, but they can get by with just good Wis and decent Con. Also, one of the most powerful feats for them (Natural Spell) screams out from the page for anyone eligible (any druid lvl 6 or higher) to take it.

[Eldariel]

Im pretty new to D&D btw
I liked the fluff of druids but the friends I play with say that there like really underpowered. Kind of a tries to do too many things and fails (somewhat like a monk). I still kind of want to play the druid but would like warning if its truly unplayable.

thanks in advance!

Druids are just about the strongest class in 3.5 for most levels. In short, your friends are wrong. It's true that they try to do everything at once, but the difference is that where others fail, they succeed.

Druid has spellcasting. That alone makes them amazing. Their list comes with some of the most devastating spells in the game (Control Winds comes to mind) along with lots of good control spells (Entangle, Soften Earth and Stone, Sleet Storm, Wall of Stone, Ice Storm, etc.), key buffs (Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin, Animal's X stat buffs, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward), access to healing (so they can use Wands of Cure Light Wounds, and cast Heal) and free access to summons (great for combat, SNAIV gets you Unicorns which are superb healers healing more than Cure Critical Wounds composite, and there are others like Pixies casting Otto's Irresistible Dance off SNAVIII and so on; oh, and Giant Vermin to make things which can honestly fight Tarrasque, like Colossal Scorpion). Oh, and Shapechange on the top of the tree as crown jewel and the best spell in the game. Oh, and summoning Elementals for scouting and the like (moving through solid objects and such is what they do)

They also have animal companions. These things could also be called "Fighters". Literally, on level 1 you get a Riding Dog which has 2 HD, good Reflex & Fort-saves, decent stats, Trip attack & Scent. Get a War-trained Riding Dog, toss Studded Leather Barding (or Hide Barding) and better on it and watch it have the highest AC in the party. Then you can get a more powerful one every 3 levels thereafter (and yours improves one level before getting a new one) getting you Dire Bats, Leopards, Brown Bears, Dire Lions, Tigers, Dire Bears & Dire Tigers. Dire animals have good Will-saves too; and they scale with the level, especially when you buff them with Animal's X buffs, Greater Magic Fang & Barkskin, and get them some rudimentary equipment (at least Bardings). They are amazing indeed; as it's a free action to handle them in combat, it's like an extra character.

Finally, you have Wildshape. Or, in English, "regardless of your Dex or Str, you will be an extremely competent warrior from level 6 onwards". It lasts hours/level and with Natural Spell you can cast under it so you'll be perfectly competent a warrior in addition to caster and having animal companion. Start with Deinonychus, Leopard, Crocodile and so on, upgrade to Brown Bear, Tiger & co. when you get Large forms and then go to Dire animals, and eventually Plants and Elementals.



So no, Druids aren't bad. They're amazing. They're amazing warriors (buffs + Wildshape), come with a second decent warrior (animal companion + buffs [Animal Growth is good in the long term]) & have a great spell list (not as good as Wizard's but still great). Oh, and they have D8 HD, the most important saves as "good" with Con and Wis (the stats boosting said saves) as their key stats, and freedom to dump Dex & Str due to Wildshape (which also boosts your Dex & Con improving your Fort & Ref). Oh, and 4+Int skills off a good list as a pure bonus, including best Spot & Listen in the game (due to being Wisdom-based and having both in class); also, Concentration (obv), Handle Animal (best users in the game by far) & Knowledge (Nature) and Spellcraft as necessary. And the freedom to dump points into Int as they don't need physicals all that much.

[BIGMamaSloth]

wow I just got like 7 responses in 8 minutes. thanks I had no Idea how good they were!

[Sinfonian]

Two more illustrations from Mr. Burlew himself, special attention to panel 4 in each one: here and here.

[rubycona]

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of other posters here.

Before you kill me...! I know Druids are epic!!!

But the fact is, they're a complex class. I mean, there's a LOT going on there. You're controlling basically 2 characters, you've got a bunch of spells to figure out, and you can change practically your entire character over and over with Wildshapes.

So, I personally think, someone who's new to D&D could very well have a hard time playing a druid effectively. I personally know a player (someone in our group, previous campaign) who really struggled to be effective with her druid. One problem? She never once used Wild Shape. There were many problems.

Anyway, to the OP, here's the deal. Druids are absolutely completely capable, and if you put the time and effort into learning how to use them, you will most likely blow the rest of your group out of the water (if they think Druids are underpowered, they should be easy to outdo).

However, if you're not going to put a lot of effort into it, you may overextend yourself with the druid class, and by misusing the various abilities, end up effectively underpowered (like my druid PC friend).

So that's basically the choice you've got to make. Thing is with D&D, you need to put a lot of effort up front for a lot of the more powerful classes, like wizards, druids, clerics, etc, but once you've got the system down, once you really understand what's going on, you will absolutely rock whatever world you become a part of.

If you're not up for the sit-down study of the various critical chapters (combat, magic, etc), learning your spells, your abilities, etc etc etc, then your best bet is to go with a simpler class, with fewer options. Fighter is great for that... you make your choices in the construction, but during the game, it's real simple.

Druids take a lot of work to learn, especially if you're new, and as a DM, I would strongly discourage first time D&Ders from the Druid class (also Wizard. Sorcerers are fine) simply because they're complex.

Again, ultimately up to you.

[Lev]

Im pretty new to D&D btw
I liked the fluff of druids but the friends I play with say that there like really underpowered. Kind of a tries to do too many things and fails (somewhat like a monk). I still kind of want to play the druid but would like warning if its truly unplayable.

thanks in advance!

Aha haha hahahahaha ha.....ha.

No, you're thinking of bards, bards have bad spell progression, medium skill progression and medium-low attack progression with no real synergy into any.

Druids are more like clerics but instead of getting godly buffs from their spells and domains and having to live with terrible "turn undead" abilities that are situational, you basically get outstanding class features that highly synergize with casting, combat and skills.

No, Druids have great spellcasting and do not get any worse than clerics or sorcerers, but since they have Wildshape instead of familiars or turning or lay on hands or slowfall, they are T1.
T1 = Best, and only 2 classes in the game are T1.

[Sinfonian]

T1 = Best, and only 2 classes in the game are T1.

Not quite true. Last time I looked there are 5 (6 if you count a particular class variant) Tier 1 classes. From T1 you're neglecting Artificier and Archivist (which is kinda understandable as they aren't Core), but most especially Wizards.

Edit: Spelling.

[rubycona]

T1 = Best, and only 2 classes in the game are T1.

2 classes in the game are Tier 1? Erm, while Druids certainly make the list, so do Wizards and Clerics, and a few from other books, too.

Edit - Ninja'd on that XD

[sonofzeal]

Caveat:


A Druid in Wildshape tends to have mediocre HP (since it doesn't go up based on your new form's Con), and poor AC (since you lose armor and items by default). You really have to pump Con to keep the HP high, and work on some way of getting armor/items in Wildshape form, if you're going to survive on the front lines for long. Wilding Clasps (MIC) is one way, as is buying a suit of barding that your allies can put on your favorite Wildshape form in a spare moment.

They're also one of the hardest classes in the game to run. You need to work out stats for yourself, your animal companion, multiple possible wildshape forms, multiple potential summons, and then you've got a whole spell list on top of that. It gets confusing, to say the least. Not for beginners.

[Urpriest]

T1 = Best, and only 2 classes in the game are T1.

Aren't there 6 or so? Even in Core you've got 3.

[Eldariel]

A Druid in Wildshape tends to have mediocre HP (since it doesn't go up based on your new form's Con), and poor AC (since you lose armor and items by default). You really have to pump Con to keep the HP high, and work on some way of getting armor/items in Wildshape form, if you're going to survive on the front lines for long. Wilding Clasps (MIC) is one way, as is buying a suit of barding that your allies can put on your favorite Wildshape form in a spare moment.

This...isn't really true. Since you only NEED two stats and have only one point below Fighter HD, you tend to have at least as much HP as a Fighter (since you tend to be able to afford Con one higher than an equivalent Fighter). And AC...it won't start off that impressive unless you have the Monk/Ninja/whatever dip for Wis to AC, or access to Wilding Clasps [Masters of the Wild/Magic Item Compendium], but once you can afford Wild Armor (which is Core), your AC will vastly exceed that of everyone else.

Not to mention Animated Shields, which should work fine while Wildshaped. Whether you can equip stuff onto yourself after Wildshaping is something to ask your DM; by rules as written it should work but it is a tad strong, so... E.g. simple Monk's Belt means you can reach AC near 30 on level 6. Also don't forget Cat's Grace, Barkskin & company which are all 10 min/level.

[Lev]

Aren't there 6 or so? Even in Core you've got 3.

Where's the definitive tier listing again?

[rubycona]

Where's the definitive tier listing again?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0

Enjoy

[Eldariel]

Where's the definitive tier listing again?

You could also just read my signature; I've linked it for just this kinds of reasons

[Grynning]

Where's the definitive tier listing again?

Here.

ARGH SWORDSAGED MOAR

[sonofzeal]

This...isn't really true. Since you only NEED two stats and have only one point below Fighter HD, you tend to have at least as much HP as a Fighter (since you tend to be able to afford Con one higher than an equivalent Fighter). And AC...it won't start off that impressive unless you have the Monk/Ninja/whatever dip for Wis to AC, or access to Wilding Clasps [Masters of the Wild/Magic Item Compendium], but once you can afford Wild Armor (which is Core), your AC will vastly exceed that of everyone else.

Not to mention Animated Shields, which should work fine while Wildshaped. Whether you can equip stuff onto yourself after Wildshaping is something to ask your DM; by rules as written it should work but it is a tad strong, so... E.g. simple Monk's Belt means you can reach AC near 30 on level 6. Also don't forget Cat's Grace, Barkskin & company which are all 10 min/level.

Well, pumping Con is an obvious choice for the Druid, but you still need to actually do it. And due to the inexplicable popularity of Elven Druids, apparently not everyone gets that memo.

AC, yeah, getting wis-to-AC helps, but Wild is a +3 enchant and you're only going to be getting Leather or Hide. That's minimal, and not going to do much of anything to make up the gap.

Animal AC's just plain stink. Some examples of popular forms...

Tiger, 6HD, AC 14
Polar Bear, 8HD, AC 15
Dire Tiger, 17 HD, AC 17

Slap on some massively enchanted leather armor, and... your AC is still in the gutter, not even close to where it needs to be to protect you from melee threats of your level. Again, there's things you can do, but you still need to actually do them. And people who aren't well-versed in CharOp lore often don't have that skill of finding ways to get their AC competitive.

[Psyren]

Aren't there 6 or so? Even in Core you've got 3.

And two more are free online

[Sinfonian]

Well, pumping Con is an obvious choice for the Druid, but you still need to actually do it. And due to the inexplicable popularity of Elven Druids, apparently not everyone gets that memo.

I don't think that Elven druids are in any way inexplicable. In most people's minds, elves tend to be closer to nature and thus druid seems to be a natural choice for them. It seems much more natural than say using a dwarf, who does have the Con bonus, but most (Pikel Bouldershould aside) don't immediately think of them when making druids from a fluff perspective.

[Eldariel]

Well, pumping Con is an obvious choice for the Druid, but you still need to actually do it. And due to the inexplicable popularity of Elven Druids, apparently not everyone gets that memo.

Well, it's 'cause Elves should by fluff be natural Druids. Apparently Wizards too but we all know how that works out as well... But yeah, you pretty much need to play some überexotic Elf-race to actually gain anything beneficial out of it (aside from Longbow proficiencies which are nice for the first 5 levels). Like, Desert Elf is the only "good" D&D Elf for a Druid in that it loses an irrelevant stat (Str) for a less irrelevant stat (Dex). And even that's about that; they only get Shortbow prof so even that benefit is diminished.

AC, yeah, getting wis-to-AC helps, but Wild is a +3 enchant and you're only going to be getting Leather or Hide. That's minimal, and not going to do much of anything to make up the gap.

+3 isn't that bad on armor. It's only 16k to get a +1 Wild armor; that's within level 7 WBL. Armor Enhancements are quite cheap in the end. Also, Dragonhide. Dragonhide is really cheap and makes any armor Druid wearable. Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is a nice starting point, especially since Wild bypasses max dex bonuses and ACPs and such; only the armor bonus is applied while Wildshaped.

Dragonhide Plate costs like 3300. Anything else is really cheap; Dragonhide Breastplate is affordable level 2, for example. Costs whoppin' 700gp.

Animal AC's just plain stink. Some examples of popular forms...

Tiger, 6HD, AC 14
Polar Bear, 8HD, AC 15
Dire Tiger, 17 HD, AC 17

Slap on some massively enchanted leather armor, and... your AC is still in the gutter, not even close to where it needs to be to protect you from melee threats of your level. Again, there's things you can do, but you still need to actually do them. And people who aren't well-versed in CharOp lore often don't have that skill of finding ways to get their AC competitive.

But slap on a +1 Wild Fullplate, Cat's Grace and Barkskin and you're looking at AC 28 on a simple Tiger on level 7, for example. Though you're definitely right that it takes awareness that you need to work for your AC to make it work. But it's far from "hard", if you know what you're doing.

[Rasman]

*Insert Maniacal Laughter Here*



It kinda sounds like your friends either

1. Don't Want You To Play A Druid
2. Don't Know How to Play A Druid
   or
3. Haven't Been Shown the HORRORS a Druid Can Bring About

Druids are EASILY one of the most powerful classes in D&D. Take a look at the PrC "Planar Shepherd" and you'll see what I'm talking about. But if THEY believe druids are underpowered, then MORE POWER TO YOU!

Play it, being the new guy, and out play them. Convince your DM to let you play a Planar Shepherd, since it's a Druid PrC and then just break the game.

[Sinfonian]

Convince your DM to let you play a Planar Shepherd, since it's a Druid PrC and then just break the game.

I don't mean to be rude, but any advice that ends with those words should not be followed.

Edit: Of course, the advice to take Planar Shepherd is pretty much synonymous.

[Eldariel]

Convince your DM to let you play a Planar Shepherd, since it's a Druid PrC and then just break the game.

YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

[Rasman]

lol...I'm just saying that if they PERCEIVE the druid to be "underpowered" that the most direct and obvious thing to do is make a Planar Shepherd, one of the most obviously awesome PrCs in the system. Play one in a Pathfinder System, they're not nearly as broken...almost...kinda...

...ok...so maybe you have to gimp yourself INTENTIONALLY in order for it to not be broken...

YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

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ICANHAZPASS!

[Eldariel]

lol...I'm just saying that if they PERCEIVE the druid to be "underpowered" that the most direct and obvious thing to do is make a Planar Shepherd, one of the most obviously awesome PrCs in the system. Play one in a Pathfinder System, they're not nearly as broken...almost...kinda...

Meh. Breaking the game with Planar Shepherd is a bit too easy. At least go through some effort and just play a plain Druid; you're still stronger than 99% of the characters ever to see light of day in D&D games.

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ICANHAZPASS!

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