Females wanting to be thin

[pendell]

Saw this article on livescience

Girls as young as 3 are already emotionally invested in being thin, to the point where some even will avoid touching game pieces that depict a fat individual, a small study on preschoolers suggests.

So my question for our females in the playground is -- nature or nurture? Does society really start programming children to be stick-figure women below the age of 3? Or is it a biological component, something genetic?

If you are a female, do you feel pressure to be thin? Does this come from inside yourself? Or were you taught by someone else, by TV or your parents or somebody? If we gave kids big, beefy bubushka dolls to play with rather than stick figure barbies, could we reverse this trend? Or is it something natural for women that can't be changed by programming?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dish]

Nurture. Definitely nurture. Believe it or not, there are still some (pretty isolated from the majority world culture) places where girls grow up wanting to be big, curvy, bonnie, and cuddly.

Trust me, i've been to one of them. They were all anxious about me because I was too thin.

However, those of us who grow up in the majority world culture tend to be indoctrinated into the 'thin is beautiful' thing so early that I believe most of us internalize it at a very young age. I think you would have to work really hard to bring a girl up so as to avoid this overwhelming cultural message.

ETA: I think that young boys also get this message, just a much lesser extent.

[Sipex]

I think most of us can speculate but it's really impossible for us to know.

I would say, at 3, you're old enough to have that impressed on you by others but it's also partially biological (as overweight can signify health issues). What we don't know is would these 3 year olds prefer the super skinny model or the average weight model?

[Cyrion]

Granted, I'm not a women, but...

I'd say that nurture is far more important- there are a fair number of cultures in which being fatter is being prettier.

[Spiryt]

Well, you have to define "thin".

I'm pretty sure that there is mechanism in every person that can see when one's just too thin, and similarly - when someone carries way too much needles fat/stuff.

[Zen Monkey]

It's a little of both. It's in our nature to be competitive with others in whatever displays we put on to make ourselves attractive. It's in the nurture part as to what specific traits are considered attractive. Two women might have different ideas of what makes a man a good provider, one looking for a big strong man and the other for a wealthy man. The men then pick up on social cues and compete for who appears stronger, wealthier, etc.

In short, people are pressured into being competitive everywhere, but it's the culture that dictates in what areas to compete.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I am not a woman, but there was a very interesting study (mentioned here on the Daily Mail website, not the most wonderful source but there we go) that puts a lot of weight in the Nurture camp. The gist of it is that women who diet regularly are about twice as likely to have a daughter who develops an eating disorder, suggesting that the focus placed on food is potentially harming the relationship young people have with food.

[dish]

I think most of us can speculate but it's really impossible for us to know.

I would say, at 3, you're old enough to have that impressed on you by others but it's also partially biological (as overweight can signify health issues). [...]

The health thing can work both ways.

In less economically developed societies, one natural disaster, famine, or disease outbreak (think Haiti and cholera) could easily kill someone who was too thin (as in, someone who was malnourished). In those societies larger ladies are often preferred, as they have a greater chance of survival and of producing healthy offspring.

In developed countries, natural disasters, famines and disease outbreaks pose hardly any risk at all. In that case, the more slender lady has health benefits (less diabetes, lower risk of heart-attack or stroke, etc.)

[Strawberries]

Nurture, definitely nurture.

Have you taken a look at some European paintings from Renaissance or Baroque Era? The female ideal implued way fatter women than now.

EDIT: also, I'm a woman. I'm anything but thin (not exactly fat either, but a lot fatter than the "ideal"), but I really don't care. I realize I'm one of the few to not care, though.

[Elder Tsofu]

Why haven't this one come up yet?

Spoiler

Show

Culture, as people have said before.

[Haruki-kun]

(but a lot fatter than the "ideal")

When you consider that the "ideal" can only be achieved with photoshop, that's not a bad thing.

[RebelRogue]

Since I'm pretty sure woman with a bit of fat on their bodies are more fertile then skinny ones, another vote for nurture here.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I think most of us can speculate but it's really impossible for us to know.

I would say, at 3, you're old enough to have that impressed on you by others but it's also partially biological (as overweight can signify health issues). What we don't know is would these 3 year olds prefer the super skinny model or the average weight model?

Are you aware of how dangerous being underweight or undernourished* is for a 3 year old? The harm that being underweight or malnourished can do, long term, to a toddler is arguably worse than the harm that can be done by being overweight. To take a single example, the risk of brittle bones, particularly in girls, is massive and the dangers posed are significant and life long.

*underweight to mean under a healthy weight, undernourished to mean not receiving sufficient nutrients.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Yeah, definitely need a definition of 'thin'.

Weight Scale
Anorexic, Runway Model, Thin, Slender, Curvy, Average, Pudgy, Chubby, Out of Shape, Overweight, Obese

Anorexic is deathly thin, Average may have a few extra pounds but nothing to comment on, Obese can barely walk.

Thin to Chubby is usually healthy.

For instance the body type of Christina Hendricks is my ideal. Curves without rolls. Very healthy without extra weight in places that could cause medical problems.

[Dr.Epic]

I'd say nurture. Granted I'm a man, but many decades ago wasn't it considered attractive for women to be a few pounds over weight?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Since I'm pretty sure woman with a bit of fat on their bodies are more fertile then skinny ones, another vote for nurture here.

This is true, or to be more precise sexual fertility is one of the first things that the body shuts down when facing shortages of nutrients and calories.

[Sipex]

Are you aware of how dangerous being underweight or undernourished* is for a 3 year old? The harm that being underweight or malnourished can do, long term, to a toddler is arguably worse than the harm that can be done by being overweight. To take a single example, the risk of brittle bones, particularly in girls, is massive and the dangers posed are significant and life long.

*underweight to mean under a healthy weight, undernourished to mean not receiving sufficient nutrients.

Whoa whoa, I never said underweight was good guys, no more attacks please. Crazy skinny women are scary to look at.

I will input, however, that a combination of nature and nuture can make skinny the favourable outcome.

Let's say a toddler, by nature, can identify someone who is TOO fat or TOO skinny (to unhealthyness here). Now, add in nurture which adds more "Fat is bad" and "Skinny is good" stigma to make skinny/average the favourable outcome.

Of course, then nurture tends to go overboard and average becomes lumped in with Fat.


edit: To clarify, average...to me, would be whatever your body can accomodate on a normal, 3 meal diet without crazy restrictions but without going overboard or underboard either. Usually something between 100-200 pounds depending on your body type.

edit2: These are ballpark numbers people, I could very well be wrong. I don't want rebuttals of "OH, I'M 250 pounds! Does that make me fat?!" because really, I don't know.

[Strawberries]

When you consider that the "ideal" can only be achieved with photoshop, that's not a bad thing.

Hmmm, nah, to be perfectly honest, I know a lot of real women who are way thinner than me. But since all most of them seem to talk about is how much calories a food have...I consider myself lucky.

Another interesting thing: the female ideal, at least im my country, shifted a lot in the last... oh, 70 years. If you ask my gran, she'll tell that all the current actresses and models, not to mention a big chunk of the girls in the streets, are unhealthy thin. Must have something to do with the fact she was born right at the end of one world war and survived through another, when being thin meant you were starving.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Let's say a toddler, by nature, can identify someone who is TOO fat or TOO skinny (to unhealthyness here). Now, add in nurture which adds more "Fat is bad" and "Skinny is good" stigma to make skinny/average the favourable outcome.

Of course, then nurture tends to go overboard and average becomes lumped in with Fat.

Ah, well in that case I can see how that might work. This is a very insightful theory, although I wonder how you could examine it.

[Orzel]

Nuture. I'm male but the culture I grew up in exphasize on curves a lot more than overall thinness. Therefore the attractiveness of the thin has been artificially lowered on my visual priority by local society.

[Jessicat]

Nurture. And society and the media in general.

I went through the unfortunate experience of some emotional abuse that drove me to become so stressed that I refused to eat anything that was remotely "unhealthy". I found I was competing for attention between myself and another, slightly larger woman, and figured that as long as I stayed as the younger, skinner model that I had one step up on the other person.

When I got out of that situation, I gained some weight. Now everyone says I look "Healthy".

Yet there are other people who are explicitly telling me to not gain any MORE weight. (I am 5'6''/136 - very normal).

On the other side, I have friends that are overweight and insecure about it and they try and feed me stuff all the time to make themselves feel better. And It's only because everywhere you look, there's all these stick thin people prancing around and having pictures taken of them.

But I can't deny not wanting to be model thin. Its drilled into us that thin is beautiful. At least on this side of the world.

[Obrysii]

It most assuredly is culture.

For the bulk of human existance, having more "bulk" was a good sign - in colder climates it assisted (to some degree) and in warmer climates it was a sign of health and wealth.

It has only been in the last few centuries that "thin was in" - and then, look at the bulk of African cultures: thin is most certainly not in by choice.

Even in the U.S., I've found most guys much prefer a woman with a "bit of meat on her bones" - someone more curvy than stick-figure. It's only the media and the fashion folks who are after the super-thin. And unfortunently, that's the message women hear and see.

Personally, I'd rather have someone soft to cuddle with rather than someone who's going to be a hard mass of bones. But I'm a guy who isn't much of a looker, so perhaps I'm biased.

When I got out of that situation, I gained some weight. Now everyone says I look "Healthy".

Yet there are other people who are explicitly telling me to not gain any MORE weight. (I am 5'6''/136 - very normal).

You're in the "sweet-spot". At 5' 6" you could easily gain another twenty pounds and still be in that weight category that the majority of guys I know would drool over you.

One of my friends is 5' 2" and due to medicational issues gained enough to get her close to 150 - but she remained desirable and beautiful - and here's a big reason why: personality. I'm not saying that she wasn't beautiful otherwise, but add her natural form to her personality and regardless of what she'd weigh (super skinny or heavier), she'd be beautiful.

What's more important is personality - a skinny girl with a bad personality is far less attractive than a heavier girl with a good personality.

That's the thing to cultivate. If you're friendly and nice, don't even worry about weight. The guys who matter don't care that you're 130 or 150 or 97 pounds - they care that you're fun to be with, fun to hang out with.

[Sipex]

It most assuredly is culture.

For the bulk of human existance, having more "bulk" was a good sign - in colder climates it assisted (to some degree) and in warmer climates it was a sign of health and wealth.

It has only been in the last few centuries that "thin was in" - and then, look at the bulk of African cultures: thin is most certainly not in by choice.

Even in the U.S., I've found most guys much prefer a woman with a "bit of meat on her bones" - someone more curvy than stick-figure. It's only the media and the fashion folks who are after the super-thin. And unfortunently, that's the message women hear and see.

Personally, I'd rather have someone soft to cuddle with rather than someone who's going to be a hard mass of bones. But I'm a guy who isn't much of a looker, so perhaps I'm biased.

I'll second you here, I've got no problem with a woman who's even a bit chubby (200 pounds on a 5'5" woman for example which isn't even really bad.)

A lot of my friends agree too, it's only when you get into certain sub cultures are all the guys into the stereotypical looks. I believe that as long as you find someone attractive (regardless of over, under, mid weight) you shouldn't restrict yourself.

[Crow]

We teach our daughter that strong is beautiful. Neither "skinny", nor "curvy" are desirable. Rather, like her mom, an athletic build (lean, with muscle) is best. Hell, her mom is stronger than some of my guy friends, but looks like any other pretty woman for the most part, just much stronger.

As far as we're concerned, underweight is just as unheathy as overweight. I certainly would not find myself attracted a girl who was 5'5" 200. But I wouldn't have a warm-fuzzy for a girl at 5'5" 105 either.

[Obrysii]

We teach our daughter that strong is beautiful. Neither "skinny", nor "curvy" are desirable. Rather, like her mom, an athletic build (lean, with muscle) is best. Hell, her mom is stronger than some of my guy friends, but looks like any other pretty woman for the most part, just much stronger.

You should teach her that being herself is beautiful. That personality counts far more than looks.

A great example is a woman from my high school. She was cute, but not "hot" - she was overweight in the "big boned" sort of way - but she was the fancy of quite a few guys, and why? She had such a powerful charisma that everyone was just entranced by her.

[Jessicat]

We teach our daughter that strong is beautiful. Neither "skinny", nor "curvy" are desirable. Rather, like her mom, an athletic build (lean, with muscle) is best. Hell, her mom is stronger than some of my guy friends, but looks like any other pretty woman for the most part, just much stronger.

I agree. I'd rather be fit and healthy and weigh more, than malnourished and only 108lbs.

[Mauve Shirt]

Nurture. I'm only convinced I'm fat because my parents constantly tell me to lose weight. At least, that's what I assume, since enough of my friends try to tell me I'm not fat.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I am curious as to why so much of a fuss is made over people's weights, and gain and loss thereof. So long as you're healthy (which weight doesn't even necessarilty affect), how is it anyone else's business?

[Crow]

You should teach her that being herself is beautiful. That personality counts far more than looks.

She can be herself all that she wants. But we're not going to neglect teaching her how to take care of her body. As parents, we have a responsibility to ensure the health and well-being of our children. Personality and good health are not mutually exclusive, and shouldn't be treated as such.

We teach by example. It's not like we force her into sports or anything else she doesn't want to do, but we do keep an eye on what we feed her. She does activities that she wants to do (usually because she sees us doing them all the time). She does exercises because she sees mom doing exercises, and she kicks balls and jumps and rolls off of things because she sees dad playing soccer and doing parkour.

[pendell]

You should teach her that being herself is beautiful. That personality counts far more than looks.

This is precisely why I married my current wife. She'll never be a runway model, but she loves others and is absolutely devoted to those she loves. Like a falcon, her trust is hard to win but once given is absolute.

She's quite a woman, and that has nothing to do with looks.

Still .. it seems as if for most people looks serve as advertising. The packaging makes people look closer. If the advertising isn't there, a lot of people won't take a second look to see the true beauty that lies underneath the skin.


Respectfully,

Brian P.