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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Question [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    We've had many threads about how (im)potent a class or a class feature is, but which classes strike a fair balance between I WIN and i wish i could do something?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Anything in T3 really

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Anything in T3 really
    Which is?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Which is?
    T3 stands for Tier 3

    Useful at all levels, powerful and capable without being world-breaking.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Tier 3. As per JaronK's Tier System, which seeks to rate the relative power level of the classes according to how well they stack up against each other in terms of flexibility and utility and how well they can respond to a wide variety of situations.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    The Warblade.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Barbarian seems goood to me.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    I always thought the "specialized" casters felt balanced, such as Beguiler, War Mage and Dread Necromancer. They are easily the most balanced casters. I wish they made some more for the other schools of magic.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    You should be able to find a complete list here. It is a list of high quality Tier 3 homebrew and published classes that should meet all roleplaying needs.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    I'd say Beguiler and DFA are overpowered at levels 1-2, though that's a small enough part of 1-20 to forgive them. DFA is tier 3, right?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    I'd say Beguiler and DFA are overpowered at levels 1-2, though that's a small enough part of 1-20 to forgive them. DFA is tier 3, right?
    Two things.
    One how is beguiler overpowered at level 1-2? Is it because they have a large selection of first level spells to choose from?

    Two: What is a DFA?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
    You should be able to find a complete list here. It is a list of high quality Tier 3 homebrew and published classes that should meet all roleplaying needs.
    Wasn't the ebon initiate given as a tier two class by ErrantX himself?

    Anyway, I'd never go so far as to call that a complete list. There are countless creations that could easily fit into that list which aren't on it right now.

    I like where you're going with the idea, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Two: What is a DFA?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Two things.
    One how is beguiler overpowered at level 1-2? Is it because they have a large selection of first level spells to choose from?
    Well, the fact that they have fourteen first level spells known, including most of the batman wizard's level 1 spell list and much more, is a part of it. The fact that they cast from all of it spontaneously is another. The icing is that they also get a d6 hit die, casting in light armor, 6+int skill points from a great list, and even trapfinding to make the rogue go cry in a corner. To be honest, at level 1 there's not much a Cleric/Wizard/Rogue/Fighter team could cover that a Druid/Beguiler team couldn't except for action economy.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    DFA is tier 3, right?
    Nope tier 4, albeit closer to tier 3 than the warlock.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Nope tier 4, albeit closer to tier 3 than the warlock.
    I guess class power more naturally lies on a spectrum; we just chop it up into tiers to make sense of it. For instance, Beguiler is probably high Tier 3, and Druid is either high Tier 1 (off the shelf, lower level) or low Tier 1 (high op, high level).
    Last edited by GoodbyeSoberDay; 2010-11-19 at 02:33 AM.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    I guess class power more naturally lies on a spectrum; we just chop it up into tiers to make sense of it. For instance, Beguiler is probably high Tier 3, and Druid is either high Tier 1 (off the shelf, lower level) or low Tier 1 (high op, high level).
    yeah, iirc, barbarians are low tier 4 and fighters are high tier 5 (such that actual class features, zhentarim soldier/dungeoncrasher send 'em into tier 4)
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    most ToB stuff is ok
    Barbarian is good and stays just right especially with PrCs.
    Rogues are of course appropriate.
    So are scouts.
    Most t3-t4 stuff is good

    some edited/strengthened t5 stuff can also be good (ex PF fighter)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    I'd say Beguiler and DFA are overpowered at levels 1-2, though that's a small enough part of 1-20 to forgive them. DFA is tier 3, right?
    I'm not sure why DFA would be overpowered at levels 1-2, even with entangling exhalation for the increased breath damage.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    I'm not sure why DFA would be overpowered at levels 1-2, even with entangling exhalation for the increased breath damage.
    It's damage + entangle, at will. Always-on abilities are at a premium at low levels, and EE breath is almost as good as one of the wizard's spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Well, DFAs can destroy the whole world with a standard action at level 1. I'd call that overpowered.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Well, DFAs can destroy the whole world with a standard action at level 1. I'd call that overpowered.
    Why stop there? Burn a feat to get knowledge (the planes) as a class skill.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-11-19 at 06:08 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Well, DFAs can destroy the whole world with a standard action at level 1. I'd call that overpowered.
    If thats your basis for calling them overpowered lets throw Paladin on that list as well :P
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by FelixG View Post
    If thats your basis for calling them overpowered lets throw Paladin on that list as well :P
    DFA can make it by accident, that's the thing.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    DFA can make it by accident, that's the thing.
    'I took Clinging Breath and Extend Breath, they seemed so useful.
    ...
    ...
    ...wait a second, there is no limit to how long I can extend/make it cling?!'
    Don't you need enlarge/widen? Extend just make it last in its area for longer.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Don't you need enlarge/widen? Extend just make it last in its area for longer.
    Oh, Enlarge Breath, that's it.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Oh I see, TO dubious cheese does indeed break classes. Not a problem inherently with the DFA, just the player.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    Oh I see, TO dubious cheese does indeed break classes. Not a problem inherently with the DFA, just the player.
    There's nothing dubious about metabreath feat cheese.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    There's nothing dubious about metabreath feat cheese.
    Clinging, no, enlarge, yes, and frankly "cheese that can go off at level 1" doesn't make sense in the context of "overpowered at level 1-2, but fine 3-20".

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    It's damage + entangle, at will. Always-on abilities are at a premium at low levels, and EE breath is almost as good as one of the wizard's spells.
    Eh, I'm not convinced. While entangle is decently good against the right opponents, it's not a full shutdown in the same vein as color spray, or sleep or grease.
    Last edited by Kylarra; 2010-11-19 at 12:07 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    To answer Endarire's original query, I think Dread Necromancer strikes the straightest, truest balance between 'I win' and 'I wish I could do something (at this level),' for my preferred playstyle.
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Which classes feel "just right" power-wise through levels 1-20?

    I will go out there and say most of the classes that get some skill points + focused class skill list + focused spell casting + class features are mostly balanced, doubly so when you compare them apples to apples with eachother.

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