Effective unarmored melee

[WarKitty]

I want to build a level, say, 5 character with the highest possible unarmored AC. What classes/races would you pick?

Ok, a few modifications:

(1) No armor means no actual *armor*. Other gear (such as monk's belt) is fine.

(2) No wildshape or other polymorph-type stuff.

(3) Must be at least competent in melee.

Edit: The idea is to recreate the classic loin-cloth barbarian. A task which the D&D barbarian does an awful job of.

[Psyren]

By "Unarmored" do you mean "with no gear at all," "without wearing a metal/leather/etc. cage everywhere" or simply "with no armor bonus?"

[Kaww]

If you said lvl 6 I would have said ~40. Since my player did it once.
Druid can get pretty high unarmored AC - Desmodu Hunting Bat has 20 AC to start with. With VoP your AC bonuses stack while wild shaped, so add +5 exalted AC, + barkskin... I would say ~30 with cat's grace etc.

[WarKitty]

Ok, a few modifications:

(1) No armor means no actual *armor*. Other gear (such as monk's belt) is fine.

(2) No wildshape or other polymorph-type stuff.

(3) Must be at least competent in melee.

[Kaww]

As said I saw ~40 at lvl6 (ECL 8) with saint template.
If the template was applicable at lvl 4 it would have been 38 at ECL 6.
EDIT: What does 'competent in melee' mean?

[Psyren]

So you're fine with getting an armor bonus by other means, right? (e.g. Mage Armor.) And are shields okay?

[WarKitty]

EDIT: What does 'competent in melee' mean?

Capable of being a front-line melee fighter in a non-optimized game and actually hit something at least half the time, plus having enough hit points to not get splattered. Essentially, I'm trying to build your classic loincloth barbarian.

So you're fine with getting an armor bonus by other means, right? (e.g. Mage Armor.) And are shields okay?

Mage armor and such are ok, as long as I don't have to depend on a pet caster all the time. Shields are not optimal but manageable.

[Vladislav]

I get AC 37 on level 2.

Halfling (Dex 20, +5, and +1 size)
Monk 1 (Wisdom to AC, +4)
Wizard 1 (Mage Armor, +4), Shield (+4 shield), and using the Precocious Apprentice feat to cast Alter Self into a Troglodyte (+6 natural).
Law Devotion feat for +3 AC.

Do what you may with the other three levels.

[WarKitty]

I get AC 37 on level 2.

Halfling (Dex 20, +5, and +1 size)
Monk 1 (Wisdom to AC, +4)
Wizard 1 (Mage Armor, +4), Shield (+4 shield), and using the Precocious Apprentice feat to cast Alter Self into a Troglodyte (+6 natural).
Law Devotion feat for +3 AC.

Do what you may with the other three levels.

I did say no polymorph. But other than that looks good.

[Vladislav]

I am an idiot, by Altering Self into a trog he loses the +1 size bonus of course. So only 36.

[Kaww]

Also Alter self requires you to be able to cast it? Since the target is you? Shield is also personal...

[ericgrau]

I get AC 37 on level 2.

Halfling (Dex 20, +5, and +1 size)
Monk 1 (Wisdom to AC, +4)
Wizard 1 (Mage Armor, +4), Shield (+4 shield), and using the Precocious Apprentice feat to cast Alter Self into a Troglodyte (+6 natural).
Law Devotion feat for +3 AC.

Do what you may with the other three levels.

Monks can't use shields while retaining their AC. Generally for purely theoretical AC you dump all your levels into races and templates rather than classes. At low levels alter self gets around that, but only for an hour or less. You could be an actual troglodyte to keep the AC all day, or with higher LA+HD races you could go beyond a troglodyte's AC. Also dunno how you expect 18s in both dex and wis.

[Eloel]

Class is Monk/Psychic Warrior with Tashalatora. Race, probably Strongheart Halfling

[AtwasAwamps]

Monks can't use shields while retaining their AC. Generally for purely theoretical AC you dump all your levels into races and templates rather than classes. At low levels alter self gets around that, but only for an hour or less. You could be an actual troglodyte to keep the AC all day, or with higher LA+HD races you could go beyond a troglodyte's AC. Also dunno how you expect 18s in both dex and wis.

...It's the shield spell. Not an actual +4 shield wielded at level 2.

[Vladislav]

Also Alter self requires you to be able to cast it? Since the target is you? Shield is also personal...

As luck would have it, he happens to be a level 1 Wizard with the Precocious Apprentice feat. It's actually right there in my post.

Monks can't use shields while retaining their AC.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

It's a Shield spell, not an actual shield. You don't "carry" a shield spell.

Generally for purely theoretical AC you dump all your levels into races and templates rather than classes. At low levels alter self gets around that, but only for an hour or less. You could be an actual troglodyte to keep the AC all day, or with higher LA+HD races you could go beyond a troglodyte's AC.

This is a good point, I guess.

[WarKitty]

Hmmm...perhaps I should rephrase the question.

I don't need AC through the roof. I need to build a level 5 unarmored character who is a competent melee fighter, while being roughly within WBL and leaving myself enough gold for a good weapon and whatever potions and other items I need. So, let's say shoot for an AC of 20. Preferably while maintaining an average of d10 hit die, martial weapon proficiency, and not suffering from a severe case of MAD.

[Vladislav]

Hmmm...perhaps I should rephrase the question.

I don't need AC through the roof. I need to build a level 5 unarmored character who is a competent melee fighter, while being roughly within WBL and leaving myself enough gold for a good weapon and whatever potions and other items I need. So, let's say shoot for an AC of 10. Preferably while maintaining an average of d10 hit die, martial weapon proficiency, and not suffering from a severe case of MAD.

Can you afford 18 in both WIS and DEX? What kind of point buy are we talking about?

[Kaww]

You have 0 bab, 18 on dex and 18 on wisdom and how much on int and con?
Also you lose dex when you alter self?
I didn't notice the wiz part...

[WarKitty]

Can you afford 18 in both WIS and DEX? What kind of point buy are we talking about?

Well, all the games I've played in have rolled stats, not point buy. But let's say 32 point buy. Can you really build an effective dex-based melee? I was hoping to go the PA line. It seems more like a greataxe character than a rapier character.

[Eloel]

Well, all the games I've played in have rolled stats, not point buy. But let's say 32 point buy. Can you really build an effective dex-based melee? I was hoping to go the PA line. It seems more like a greataxe character than a rapier character.

If you're looking for unarmored AC, you're looking at a finesse character. Probably a Swordsage with Shadow Blade & Weapon Finesse. And Assassin's Stance.

[Greenish]

Can you really build an effective dex-based melee? I was hoping to go the PA line. It seems more like a greataxe character than a rapier character.

You want Dex-based greataxe wielding unarmoured combatant? Any preferences for a race?

[ericgrau]

Oh this is practical not theoretical. Then I'd say you're in a lot of trouble and I wonder why you're doing this. I'd try a reach weapon + expansion to keep foes from getting near you. You can still work on your touch AC for ranged spells and maybe take monk to level 2 for deflect arrows + evasion. At such a low level a monk's belt isn't all that affordable.

[WarKitty]

You want Dex-based greataxe wielding unarmoured combatant? Any preferences for a race?

Not really. It doesn't have to be a greataxe specifically, but it needs to be something that actually feels like a *barbarian*.

Basically, this:

Spoiler

Show

Oh this is practical not theoretical. Then I'd say you're in a lot of trouble and I wonder why you're doing this. I'd try a reach weapon + expansion to keep foes from getting near you. You can still work on your touch AC for ranged spells and maybe take monk to level 2 for deflect arrows.

Because I want to play your fantasy fur loincloth barbarian and I'm trying to figure out how I can actually do that. Essentially, I want to be Conan.

[nyarlathotep]

The unarmored AC bonuses in Unearthed Arcana might work well for this.

[ericgrau]

IIRC barbarians are only half-naked in the movies and walking around outside of war. During war they put on armor.

The only practical reason I could think of for going armorless would be speed, mobility and so on. And even then light armor would work fine. If you can get a friendly mage armor that'd be about as good as light armor though. Then next figure out which skills you can exploit like tumble since you have no armor check penalty.

With some kind of powerful build you could wield a large sized rapier in two hands (or 1 if you want), weapon finesse it, and get 1.5 times strength mod to damage.

[Ruinix]

there is a loophole wich can easyly achieve 40 AC Dodge bonus.

1- buy 2 Boot Blade 2 Elbow Blades 2 Knee Blades 2 Sleeve blades.C.Scoundrel p.110
2- make all those weapons (8 in total) DEFENDING weapons, wich is a +1 enhance propertie. DMG p224
3- make a wizard apply greater magic weapon for a +5.
4-the same wizard apply permanency on those weapons.
5- ??? maybe kill the wizard :p
6- profit
7- each round transfer the +5 to hit from those weapons to ur dodge as swift action

[WarKitty]

IIRC barbarians are only half-naked in the movies and walking around outside of war. During war they put on armor.

The only practical reason I could think of for going armorless would be speed, mobility and so on. And even then light armor would work fine. If you can get a friendly mage armor that'd help though, then next figure out which skills you can exploit like tumble since you have no armor check penalty.

Yeah it happens in movies. It's fantasy, I want to make it happen here, and to hell with realism. If my mage friend can study some books and start generating fireballs from his palms, I ought to be able to walk around in a loincloth and have swords bounce off my skin.

So, no it's not a practical reason. But it's *cool*.

[Ernir]

If you don't need an AC over 9000, you could just take any old Con-heavy build and dip Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion). It doesn't solve all AC troubles ever, but it does/will provide about as much AC as a full plate can (which also applies to your touch AC!).

It doesn't look like it fits your concept, but gishes have very effective ways to get some stratospheric ACs.

[Master_Rahl22]

Hmm, you realize that AC 10 is what you get for having a 0 Dex bonus and wearing no armor and having nothing else that contributes to AC? It's not exactly a high benchmark.

If you're really looking to be completely unarmored and not just fluff it that way, you have a few options. You could play some class that allows you to buff your own AC for combat, or find ways to not care about AC.

An example of buffing yourself would of course be some sort of gish, with a level or two of some spell casting class purely to allow you to use wands/scrolls of useful spells. Another and possibly better example for what you're asking is to play a Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. They have the Barbarian/in touch with nature/uncivilized fluff and feel, synergize well with the actual Barbarian class if you want Rage (there's even the Totem Rager prestige class for progressing Rage and Meldshaping), and the soulmelds you shape can provide AC or miss chances to improve your defense.

An example of not caring about AC would be having Mirror Image and Blink active on you. It kinda doesn't matter what your AC is when there are some flat % chances that you won't get hit anyway. Another example of not caring about AC would be a Frenzied Berserker who's simply not going to die no matter how much damage he takes until the Rage is over.

[WarKitty]

Hmm, you realize that AC 10 is what you get for having a 0 Dex bonus and wearing no armor and having nothing else that contributes to AC? It's not exactly a high benchmark.

If you're really looking to be completely unarmored and not just fluff it that way, you have a few options. You could play some class that allows you to buff your own AC for combat, or find ways to not care about AC.

An example of buffing yourself would of course be some sort of gish, with a level or two of some spell casting class purely to allow you to use wands/scrolls of useful spells. Another and possibly better example for what you're asking is to play a Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. They have the Barbarian/in touch with nature/uncivilized fluff and feel, synergize well with the actual Barbarian class if you want Rage (there's even the Totem Rager prestige class for progressing Rage and Meldshaping), and the soulmelds you shape can provide AC or miss chances to improve your defense.

An example of not caring about AC would be having Mirror Image and Blink active on you. It kinda doesn't matter what your AC is when there are some flat % chances that you won't get hit anyway. Another example of not caring about AC would be a Frenzied Berserker who's simply not going to die no matter how much damage he takes until the Rage is over.

Aaaah I mean +10 to AC, for a total of 20.