Metamagic Reducers

[Galsiah]

Hi all, I have two things I was wondering if you could help me with. The first is: What are the various ways to reduce the cost of metamagic? I know of Incantatrix, Metaphysical Spellshaper, and Easy Metamagic, but I was wondering if there are other ways. The second is: How much will cheaper metamagic kill the balance in a high powered game involving commanding armies? I'm a wizard and figure that since most of the really broken spells don't benefit much from metamagic, it won't be that bad if I apply cheap metamagic to the weaker spells and maybe come up with creative uses for 'em. Thanks in advance

[AstralFire]

Arcane Thesis. I don't even know where it's from (prob. Complete Mage/Arcane), I'm not entirely sure what it does (believe it lets you pick one spell and reduce metamagic costs by 1 per metamagic), I just know that it pops up in any evoker metamagic spellcheese discussion.

[Urpriest]

Arcane Thesis is PHB II. Practical Metamagic is from Dragon Magic, though it's only available to Sorcerors. Ultimate Magus and Anima Mage (Complete Mage and Tome of Magic respectively) get free metamagic a certain number of times per day. Residual Metamagic tactical feat (Complete Mage again I believe) is also good for this sort of thing.

[Galsiah]

Thanks for the replies guys Arcane Thesis only applies to one spell, right? Seems a little weak for a feat. I may have to look into Residual Metamagic, could be good for my build. Would either Anima Mage or Ultimate Magus be worth a two level dip? I have a build set up and am trying to tweak it. So far it's Wiz 5/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/Incantatrix 10/Geometer 2. Does this look good for reducing metamagic costs or is there something else I can cram in there instead of Geometer?

[tyckspoon]

Thanks for the replies guys Arcane Thesis only applies to one spell, right? Seems a little weak for a feat.

For a spell specialist, it's awesome, because it gets better the more metamagic you have. It also provides +2 CL for the chosen spell and notably is one of the few ways to reduce a metamagic to 0 cost, so you can have free Silent/Still/whatever other +1 metamagics you have. +2 metamagics when combined with something like the Incantatrix capstone.

[Urpriest]

Thanks for the replies guys Arcane Thesis only applies to one spell, right? Seems a little weak for a feat. I may have to look into Residual Metamagic, could be good for my build. Would either Anima Mage or Ultimate Magus be worth a two level dip? I have a build set up and am trying to tweak it. So far it's Wiz 5/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/Incantatrix 10/Geometer 2. Does this look good for reducing metamagic costs or is there something else I can cram in there instead of Geometer?

Anima Mage and Ultimate Magus both are pretty signficant investments, as they're theurgey classes (though much better designed than the mystic theurge). Arcane Thesis indeed only applies to one spell (though I believe you can take it multiple times), but it is incredibly powerful if used RAW. It reduces the level cost of any feat applied to a spell by one, so long as the total cost doesn't go negative. So you can plop on a +0 metamagic feat like Invisible Spell and lower the total cost by one, letting you cast, for example, a Twinned Invisible Energy Subsituted Orb of Fire as a fifth level spell, before other reductions like Incantatrix. Pick a few good spells (an Orb, Enervation) and get some very powerful results.

[Dr.Epic]

Prestige Classes? I know Radiant Servant of Pelor can apply metamagic feats to cure spells without raising the caster level. I'm not sure about other PrC, but you could always look.

[Warlawk]

Thanks for the replies guys Arcane Thesis only applies to one spell, right? Seems a little weak for a feat.

When you start stacking on other reducers it lets you keep low level spells low level even when pimped out.

Arcane Thesis+Incantrix capstone would be very standard, nothing 3rd party or potentially abusive. Just a straight up strong wizard build. No dm would have grounds to say "no" based on questionable rules interpretations or anything.

Empower, Enlarge, Fel Weaken, Transdimensional, Enervate, Fel Drain, Split Ray, Chain Spell (easy metamagic to reduce by another 1)maximize (easy metamagic) Ray of Stupidity.

1d4+1 int damage, with an extra 50%, Extra range, a-4 str tacked on, full effect vs incorporeal/ethereal, extra 50% damage vs living creatures, living creatures get 1 negative level, 1 ray splits to 2, chain the full effect of both rays to a number of targets equal to your level for half damage, maxing the dice roll.

Easy metamagic reduces the cost on both 3 level feats by one (you have to take easy meta for both of course but as a 15+ character with 10 levels of incantrix you're swimming in metamagic feats). Incantix capstone reduces everything by one. Arcane thesis reduces everything by another 1 level and does not have a minimum, so can reduce the level modification to 0. The effect listed above is a second level spell. 20 points of int damage with no save to your primary target and you've just taken the enemy wizard you're facing off against completely out of the game and 10 points to every other target, along with str penalty and negative level puts a big hamper on his cronies.

As a second level spell.

The above list is just kind of a hodgepodge of 1 to 2 level metamagic, and most players won't likely have that specific list but it illustrates my point. Throw a Quicken Spell (easy metamagic) to make it a 3rd level and cast two of them in the same round for extra retardedness (int damage... retardedness... damn I'm clever!) Or perhaps Twin Spell (easy metamagic) to double the above mess as a 3rd level spell doing 40 int damage to the main target and 20 to everything else. Heck, if that's not enough use that as a third and a quickened twinned as 3rd and 4th level spells. Granted, you're not likely to have *that* many metamagic feats (backpack full of metamagic rods maybe? ;) ) but you can see where arcane thesis becomes the building block for stupid abuse (ray of stupidity strikes again!) of spells. Now, I will grant you that it is underwhelming on a blasting spell, but if you're blasting, you're doing it wrong to start with. (Blasting makes casters more balanced with everyone else of course, but that's a different discussion.)

EDIT:

but it is incredibly powerful if used RAW. It reduces the level cost of any feat applied to a spell by one, so long as the total cost doesn't go negative. So you can plop on a +0 metamagic feat like Invisible Spell and lower the total cost by one,

Please note that using 0 level metamagic to reduce other metamagic modifiers is consider bad form and/or against the rules by many. If you do this, your DM has a much better chance of just nixing the whole thing and outlawing the feat. Not passing judgment or saying what is right or wrong, just saying if you do it, be prepared for your dm to rain on your parade by removing it from the game. My example above does NOT use this process and never reduces any single metamagic feat below 0.

[Galsiah]

Wow, looks like I was wrong about Arcane Thesis. Though I'm still not sure if it's worth the feat, just for different reasons. We're in a campaign based around army to army warfare, so my spell choices are pretty much all battlefield control and buffing (we're only level 3 at this point, but I want to get everything planned out now.) Are there any good spells for Arcane Thesis that function as battlefield control? It seems like most control spells don't benefit much from loads of metamagic stacked on, so I'm not sure if it's worth taking.

[Urpriest]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet: Metamagic School Focus from Complete Mage is a lower-powered but still nice metamagic reducer. For a character focused on battlefield control it combos well with Sculpt Spell.

[tyckspoon]

Wow, looks like I was wrong about Arcane Thesis. Though I'm still not sure if it's worth the feat, just for different reasons. We're in a campaign based around army to army warfare, so my spell choices are pretty much all battlefield control and buffing (we're only level 3 at this point, but I want to get everything planned out now.) Are there any good spells for Arcane Thesis that function as battlefield control? It seems like most control spells don't benefit much from loads of metamagic stacked on, so I'm not sure if it's worth taking.

Anything named X Fog or Cloud is usually worth looking at, although they also tend to be a little higher level, like Solid Fog and its cousins Acid Fog and Freezing Fog. You could look at a variant of the Mailman's Death Orb, and do it with a spell like Wall of Fire; try a Twinned Enlarged Empowered Energy Admix'd Searing Spell Wall of Fire, which will block off a 100-ft+ section of battlefield anywhere within 3-400 feet of you with a 4d6+ double Caster Level wall, which will stay there for as long as you feel like paying attention to it (or even after you stop paying attention to it, if you use one of the spells that lets you hand off your concentration.) That's pretty decent, especially if you're dealing with mostly humanoid armies.

Edit: But you're right, the results aren't quite as dramatic as what you see on dedicated damage spells or by using it to extend/persist buffs. For your purposes, you may be better off investing your feats on effects that can reduce the particular metamagics you use all the time instead of working on a particular spell or spells.

[Malbordeus]

theres also twilight metamagic from magic of incarnum. only really worth mentioning because it can reduce the metamagics by more than one level on its own with a little set up.

[Warlawk]

Wow, looks like I was wrong about Arcane Thesis. Though I'm still not sure if it's worth the feat, just for different reasons. We're in a campaign based around army to army warfare, so my spell choices are pretty much all battlefield control and buffing (we're only level 3 at this point, but I want to get everything planned out now.) Are there any good spells for Arcane Thesis that function as battlefield control? It seems like most control spells don't benefit much from loads of metamagic stacked on, so I'm not sure if it's worth taking.

Enlarge, Extend, Fel Weaken, Purify Spell (if your army is good and the other is evil, this is solid gold), Sculpt spell, Fel Drain, Radiant spell...

Those are all 1 or 2 level mod that can be pretty fantastic with large scale battlefield control spells. At 3 levels Widen can be brutal with big area spells that you are going to want for battlefield control. IMO pick your favorite wall or fog spell from 4th level or lower then make it your baby with metamagic and Arcane Thesis. Energy add/sub can be sure your chosen spell isn't useless because of being a particular damage type.

[Endarire]

Metamagic and You: A Thesis

[Eldariel]

The above list is just kind of a hodgepodge of 1 to 2 level metamagic, and most players won't likely have that specific list but it illustrates my point. Throw a Quicken Spell (easy metamagic) to make it a 3rd level and cast two of them in the same round for extra retardedness (int damage... retardedness... damn I'm clever!) Or perhaps Twin Spell (easy metamagic) to double the above mess as a 3rd level spell doing 40 int damage to the main target and 20 to everything else. Heck, if that's not enough use that as a third and a quickened twinned as 3rd and 4th level spells. Granted, you're not likely to have *that* many metamagic feats (backpack full of metamagic rods maybe? ;) ) but you can see where arcane thesis becomes the building block for stupid abuse (ray of stupidity strikes again!) of spells. Now, I will grant you that it is underwhelming on a blasting spell, but if you're blasting, you're doing it wrong to start with. (Blasting makes casters more balanced with everyone else of course, but that's a different discussion.)

Not really. Orb of Fire for 1000 points of damage penetrating fire immunity and resistance is still fairly ridiculous. It's just a way for casters to play the same game others are forced to play so people tend to suggest against it simply so as to not overshadow other classes. If you play a solo caster, being able to point-and-click destroy anything can be very convenient (well, you could just call stuff but something it's convenient to do it yourself).

[mootoall]

I find it worth it to stick a level of Dread Necro in most of my builds that rely on the following trick for the rebuking: Put Fel Drain on an AoE spell that does damage. Stack on metamagic reducers. My personal favorites are Easy Metamagic+Arcane Thesis+Metamagic School Focus (usually on an evoker or conjurer for either fireballs or walls) to get a nice AoE to drain levels. Look at your army. Look down. Now look back up. Your army is now wights.

[Warlawk]

Not really. Orb of Fire for 1000 points of damage penetrating fire immunity and resistance is still fairly ridiculous. It's just a way for casters to play the same game others are forced to play so people tend to suggest against it simply so as to not overshadow other classes. If you play a solo caster, being able to point-and-click destroy anything can be very convenient (well, you could just call stuff but something it's convenient to do it yourself).

Or I could just call a horde of angels.

Well, my point was that doing 1000 points of damage is pretty piddling compared to making reality your b$#@! like some of the higher level spell abuses do. And that just kind of proves my point, do 1K damage as a really tweaked optimized blaster puts you on par with some of the supercharger or other gimmick martial builds, except they can do it all day while you are limited by spell slots. It puts an optimized wizard on par with optimized martial. Which was my point.

[Eldariel]

Or I could just call a horde of angels.

Well, my point was that doing 1000 points of damage is pretty piddling compared to making reality your b$#@! like some of the higher level spell abuses do. And that just kind of proves my point, do 1K damage as a really tweaked optimized blaster puts you on par with some of the supercharger or other gimmick martial builds, except they can do it all day while you are limited by spell slots. It puts an optimized wizard on par with optimized martial. Which was my point.

Hah! No, it allows Wizard to do what optimized melee does in lieu of all his other tricks. That is why we don't like to do it; we take the one thing optimized melee can do and do it too 'cause we're mean like that.

All this while doing everything else just as well as ever 'cause we're talking a friggin' metamagic optimized Incantatrix which means he has all buffs ever printed persisted under CL buffs and anti-dispel measures impenetrable this side of Disjunction (for which he has like 20 different Contingencies), with access to like +1 level Quickens and Twin Spells making for some true ludicrosity like Twinned Celerities and all that good jazz.


Generally the idea is that you take a Wizard, you do everything but damage and let others handle that since that's something they can handle. Doing everything by yourself is kinda...bleh. Sure, you can do it but c'mon, give others a purpose to live too!

That said, fact is that some epic challenges can be very hard to kill without a reliable way to deal damage through immunities and infinite ACs and such from a non-magical source (such as Orbs). Which is why it's occasionally convenient to pick up Searing Spell and Arcane Thesis just for something like that.

[Vizzerdrix]

You can turn a single cantrip into a volley of crossbow bolts. Arcane Thesis: Launch Bolt, Reach Spell, Chain Spell (add Invisible Spell to the mix too, or what ever else you need to bring the cost down). Target a quiver of bolts and fire off CL+3 (so 18 at level 15). Now make sure they are all Splitting Crossbow Bolts (32 bolts fired). All you gotta do is make sure they hit, and the War Domain has a few spells that will do that for you, and another feat will get you access to that as well (I think it's called Arcane Devotee). Not too shabby for a cantrip

[Myth]

OP Arcane Thesis is really good. Apply it to Enervation. Stack other metamagic. Suddenly, everyone gains 20 negative levels.

BTW another -1 to all Metmagic is the Dweomerkeepr capstone.

[Psyx]

Thanks for the replies guys Arcane Thesis only applies to one spell, right? Seems a little weak for a feat. I may have to look into Residual Metamagic, could be good for my build. Would either Anima Mage or Ultimate Magus be worth a two level dip? I have a build set up and am trying to tweak it. So far it's Wiz 5/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/Incantatrix 10/Geometer 2. Does this look good for reducing metamagic costs or is there something else I can cram in there instead of Geometer?

It's an excellent feat, and also offers +2CL for the spell.

It's not worth Dipping UM, because the MM reduction blag can only be used on spells of up to half your UM prc level.

I believe widen is only a +1 or +2... good scope there for battlefield control... say with Evard's (because GMs will love you for making them roll that many grapple checks... so probably don't use that spell...)

[dextercorvia]

Practical Metamagic is from Dragon Magic, though it's only available to Sorcerors.

Dragonblooded casters of spontaneous spells of 3rd level actually.

It's an excellent feat, and also offers +2CL for the spell.

It's not worth Dipping UM, because the MM reduction blag can only be used on spells of up to half your UM prc level.

The real problem with UM and meta-blinged spells is that the UM ability can only be used to apply a single metamagic to an otherwise un-meta'ed spell, which means that it is much better if you focus on a single metamagic like easy+practical quicken or persist than if you are trying to spam arcane thesis'd spells.

[Tokuhara]

I'd also like to mention Slaymate and its -2 metamagic reduction