Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 83
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Happening atm in my game. Best way to balance it? Melee really seem to get screwed. They can get like a +4 to initiative (8 if they haven't taken improved already) or a +2 to stats or a +4 to saves. Whereas casters get EPIC freakin spells. Seems so unbalanced to me. But I haven't played epic much. Any ideas? What do you do?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Umm... Don't play in Epic?
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Tael's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    If in normal D&D, casters are 10 and melee is 3, in Epic, Casters are over 9000 and melee is 4. Seriously. Don't play Epic.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    Umm... Don't play in Epic?
    lol, unfortunately that isn't an option at the moment. So I'm trying to convince my DM to homebrew better epic feats. Any ideas, or has anyone done homebrew epic feats for melee types?

    I mean, come frikkin on, improved toughness, +20 hps?! wtf was WoTC thinking.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Midwest, not Middle East
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Become a caster. Ur Priest from Complete Divine or Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane get you to 9th level spells faster than a base class could, but the Sublime Chord is probably unfeasible unless you're already a bard. See if you can retrain feats to qualify for Ur Priest next level. Then you'll... still suck compared to the full casters, sorry.

    Take levels in ToB classes? It's still not much compared to Epic Spellcasting, but it's something.

    Use your pile of WBL and superior system mastery. This assumes WBL and superior system mastery, so your mileage may vary.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    You could give them ToB class levels, and then homebrew some Epic Maneuvers. They still wouldn't stand a chance, but they'd at least be able to do ccol things.

    Otherwise, you could "melee" with classes like Epic Binders, Warlocks, Totemists etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    PST (GMT -8)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Make melee swear loyalty to casters, and be their personal guards.

    Not that the casters need them, but still...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thajocoth View Post
    The reason Pun-Pun doesn't work is because he doesn't have to. He can just sit around all day and let his wishes do the work for him.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You could give them ToB class levels, and then homebrew some Epic Maneuvers. They still wouldn't stand a chance, but they'd at least be able to do ccol things.

    Otherwise, you could "melee" with classes like Epic Binders, Warlocks, Totemists etc.

    This is a pretty good suggestion, which I will probably adapt since my party is getting close to epic as well(level 16, quite on their way to 17 at the moment).

    Now the next, grand question is, any good homebrewed epic schools-feats that the fine gents on this and other forums made that would make melee better(not necessarily wizard level, but still fun to play)?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    AstralFire's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    It's not going to happen without outright banning epic spellcasting as presented.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Perhaps giving the melee characters access to high-level ToB maneuvers. You could allow them to choose X number of disciplines upon becoming epic and allow them to take any maneuvers from one of those schools whenever a spellcaster would normally gain an epic spell. There might have to be some rules in place for bypassing prerequisites/determining initiator level.

    EDIT: Wow, so many people ninja'd me with ToB.
    Last edited by Corwin_of_Amber; 2010-11-22 at 03:21 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Let Melee spontaneously gestalt? Restrict the gestalting to T3 and lower for perceived balance issues?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    This thread may offer you some assistance. Still, it's of course a whole different ballpark.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Wow that's funny how many mentioned ToB. I actually already asked this of my DM, that I could use an epic feat to bypass all the prereqs for high level ToB maneuvers. He turned me down

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    Wow that's funny how many mentioned ToB. I actually already asked this of my DM, that I could use an epic feat to bypass all the prereqs for high level ToB maneuvers. He turned me down
    Let him know that you'll be over there playing Xbox until he can think of a way for you to meaningfully contribute.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    Wow that's funny how many mentioned ToB. I actually already asked this of my DM, that I could use an epic feat to bypass all the prereqs for high level ToB maneuvers. He turned me down
    Retrain into full maneuver progression, homebrew epic maneuver system, go to town.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Absolutely ban epic spellcasting.

    There was a homebrew Epic Hero prestige class, 3 levels long posted here a while ago. Each level gave one of a grab bag of really big powers. This might be useful, if made open only to non-casters.

    Or, as was suggested on a similar thread, just skip epic levels altogether, and start giving players levels in a second class, as if they were slowly becoming gestalted.
    Despair favours the status quo. It is a luxury we cannot afford. ~ Andrew Nikiforuk

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Retrain into full maneuver progression, homebrew epic maneuver system, go to town.
    Sorry, what? I don't get that. You mean rewrite my current class to a ToB class? I already said that my DM ain't letting anything like that happening. He hates ToB unfortunetally. Even though its probably the most balanced book out there

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    AstralFire's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    No ToB, epic spellcasting is allowed? If you really like your group, at that point I'd just resign myself to not being effective and focus on RP alone.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    Sorry, what? I don't get that. You mean rewrite my current class to a ToB class? I already said that my DM ain't letting anything like that happening. He hates ToB unfortunetally. Even though its probably the most balanced book out there
    Retraining = taking class levels and replacing them with other class levels. Retraining into full warrior caster type like Cleric or Wizard-base Gish would be the best bet then; you'd be better warrior than you're currently while also getting to play Epic.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    No ToB, epic spellcasting is allowed? If you really like your group, at that point I'd just resign myself to not being effective and focus on RP alone.
    Indeed :( I'm about to.

    Luckily I'm good at convincing (high cha IRL lol) and I think maybe I can bring her around. Definitely not ToB level, but I might be able to get some SLA type deals.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Banned
     
    TeqSun's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    1. Switch characters to be a caster.

    2. Play 4e. Though your DM seems to hate balance, so this is mostly a rhetorical suggestion. Still, 4e is the only edition where epic levels are remotely balanced.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Banned
     
    Zeful's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Let him know that you'll be over there playing Xbox until he can think of a way for you to meaningfully contribute.
    Epic in a nut-shell. If you don't posess Epic Spellcasting you are worthless.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SurlySeraph's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Department of Smiting
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    You basically need a way to emulate spells that become really hard to do without, like flight, protections against magic, a way to dispel enemy protections, teleportation, and True Seeing. You can do this with a good UMD check, a well-designed intelligent item, and/or tons of magic items.

    Intelligent items and even more so their epic equivalents can be very handy, since they let you use a lot of spells and you can set up their dedicated ability to be pretty much always in effect. Free feats, not needing to breathe, free skill ranks to cover what you're bad at, True Seeing at will, free Astral Projection, Gate, long-term Haste, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door at will, and free True Resurrection 1/month are some of the better abilities.

    Melee gets some things at epic that would be really nice with less prereqs and if they still worked on epic-level enemies.
    Death of Enemies and Devastating Critical (used with Keen Kukris and lots of attacks) would be great, if it wasn't trivial to be immune to critical hits at epic levels. But a Swift Hunter ranger might be able to get around that, and weapons crystals of Truedeath and whatever the construct-killing ability is might be able to get around that.
    Exceptional Deflection + Infinite Deflection = immune to ranged attacks, including ranged touch attacks. And you can buy an (animated) shield that does this for you. Adding Reflect Arrows is nice as well; you basically have permanent Spell Turning vs RTAs.
    Self-Concealment is good, especially stacked with other miss chances.

    If your DM is giving you the ridiculous amount of wealth they require, epic items can be pretty useful.
    Armor of Great Reflection is excellent. Spell Turning against everything, no questions asked.
    The Mantle of Great Stealth is pretty good
    The Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance would be good if enemy casters didn't have Assay Resistance and such to easily ignore it. (But if your DM doesn't have them easily overcoming SR 40, then it's a pretty cheap way to give yourself a fair bit of protection).
    Weapons of Unerring Accuracy, added to the epic feat that negates total concealment, come in handy.
    You can carry around a bunch of +1 Everdancing Weapons for 162,000 gp each to flank with and get more attacks in.

    Also, no ToB + epic casting allowed means that silly, highly specialized builds are probably going to be the best way to contribute. An AoO build with the Mage Slayer line can do alright if you can get huge amounts of reach, a charger build can vaporize anything vulnerable to swords, etc. You won't be on the level of the casters, but if the DM's monsters are fairly dumb you can contribute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    molten_dragon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    The State of Denial
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Honestly, by the time you hit epic, you're already well into the part of the game where casters are heavily overshadowing non-casters. As long as your group is handling it okay, I see no reason that they should not continue to do so.
    If build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

    My Homebrew

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    The casters are getting 2 epic spells by the time they hit 21. They are also having to burn xp and a good amount of gold to get them.

    If you've been managing fine up to this point, those two epic spells aren't going to change a whole helluva lot unless your DM is allowing serious epic cheese. I mean let's be honest here, your melee became irrelevant levels ago. Come back in a few levels when it's *really* a problem. ;)

    But all joking aside, is there a reason you guys can't retire these characters? If half the group isn't having fun anymore, that should be a big indication that it's time for a change.
    Avatar by Aedilred

    GitP Blood Bowl Manager Cup Record
    Styx Rivermen, Feets Reloaded, and Selene's Seductive Strut
    Record: 42-17-13
    3-time Division Champ, Cup Champion

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Just, just, don't play epic please.
    Playing epic is like trying to hurt the world.


    The best games have after my experience been up to the level 10 mark with low wealth and no tier 1 classes.
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *As a DM I run sand-box games.
    Challenge me.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Banned
     
    faceroll's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Unless you're DM is allowing players to gaterape solars and make up whatever silly epic spells they want, it won't be too bad. At this level, finding and selling a +8 item, while keeping your non-epic version will give you so much wealth, you'll be able to pick up those really sweet items, like 200,000 gp grafts and a whole stack of items that mimic necessary spells.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Epic in a nut-shell. If you don't posess Epic Spellcasting you are worthless.
    Hell, even the lowly Improved Spell Capacity lets you pull off some amazing shenanigans. (One I've always wanted to try is Empowered Gate.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Banned
     
    faceroll's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Hell, even the lowly Improved Spell Capacity lets you pull off some amazing shenanigans. (One I've always wanted to try is Empowered Gate.)
    You can already do that stuff with sudden metamagic and metamagic rods, though. But I agree, improved spell capacity is better than whatever melee gets.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
     
    tyckspoon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting into epic, melee vs casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Hell, even the lowly Improved Spell Capacity lets you pull off some amazing shenanigans. (One I've always wanted to try is Empowered Gate.)
    No actual variables in the spell, so Empowering it does nothing. Might get some mileage from Extending it if you really need something to stick around and fight for you for more than 20 rounds already.. mm.. if you're really feeling like dropping a ton of rectangular building materials on somebody, you could go Quickened Gate + Twinned Gate.. needs rather a lot of levels to get to, tho.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •