What level should this vestige be?

[Boci]

A player of mine has come up with a homebred vestige, its abilities are:

Blindsight with a range of 5ft per effective binder.

Constant mind blank.

30ft burst that forces all creatures to make a will save or be unable to act for 1 round. No recharge time. Edit: Binder is the center of the affect.

Unholy blight with CL being effective binder level, 5 round recharge time.

So what level should this be? I'm thinking 5 or 6, possibly altering the mind blank affect to mimic the willing deformity (madness) feat.

[arguskos]

A player of mine has come up with a homebred vestige, its abilities are:

Blindsight with a range of 5ft per effective binder.

Constant mind blank.

30ft burst that forces all creatures to make a will save or be unable to act for 1 round. No recharge time.

Unholy blight with CL being effective binder level, 5 round recharge time.

So what level should this be? I'm thinking 5 or 6, possibly altering the mind blank affect to mimic the willing deformity (madness) feat.

Two issues.

First, this should be in Homebrew, not Roleplaying.

Second, the bolded section. This is highly unclear. Define "unable to act" please. There's like five ways to define that in 3.5 rules, none of which has been done here. Is the target immobilized? Stunned? Dazed? Staggered? This matters a great deal.

[Boci]

Two issues.

First, this should be in Homebrew, not Roleplaying.

I wasn't sure since I don't think the player is really interested in changing anything about it.

Second, the bolded section. This is highly unclear. Define "unable to act" please. There's like five ways to define that in 3.5 rules, none of which has been done here. Is the target immobilized? Stunned? Dazed? Staggered? This matters a great deal.

Not defined, presumable to avoid any immunity to any named conditions.

[kestrel404]

A player of mine has come up with a homebred vestige, its abilities are:

Blindsight with a range of 5ft per effective binder.

Mildly situational, but a really handy power to have. Since it's effectively an always-on boost, that alone makes this vestige at least 4th level.

Constant mind blank.

Mind blank is an 8th level spell. Items that grant mind blank are AT LEAST 150k gold. That's 8th level vestige powerful.

30ft burst that forces all creatures to make a will save or be unable to act for 1 round. No recharge time.

This ability right here? That's more powerful than any ability on any vestige - even the web-published summon-monsters vestige. Give it a 5 round cooldown like every other use-activated power on a vestige, or this puts it into 'Epic Vestige' territory.

Unholy blight with CL being effective binder level, 5 round recharge time.

Not a terrible ability, but not broken. I'd say this would need to be on a 5th level vestige.

So what level should this be? I'm thinking 5 or 6, possibly altering the mind blank affect to mimic the willing deformity (madness) feat.

If you changed the mind blank power to be like the Willing Deformity (madness) feat AND removed the at-will ranged stunning power, I'd say 6th level vestige minimum - every one of those powers (except maybe the unholy blight) is something that ANY character is going to want to have. Putting them together in a package is very powerful - moreso than almost any vestige.

WITH the stunning burst power (assuming that the burst is centered on the user, affects ALL creatures (i.e. hits allies), AND has a 5 round cooldown), it's an 8th level vestige, easy.

[arguskos]

Not defined, presumable to avoid any immunity to any named conditions.

Broken, deny access to it as written. The ability to action lock ANYTHING FOREVER is stupidly broken and I have no idea why you'd even consider permitting it ever.

Change it to Stunning, give it a 1/5 round duration, and call it 6th level. If you instead change it to Immobilized you can not have a duration and still call it 6th level.

EDIT: Oh right, the mind blank. Change that to match the willing deformity too, no matter what.

[Boci]

Broken, deny access to it as written. The ability to action lock ANYTHING FOREVER is stupidly broken and I have no idea why you'd even consider permitting it ever.

Not forever, just one round. Illusionary pit (6th level spell) is similar, lasting concentration +1 round(s), same wording (unable to act, not a named condition) and once that ends or if the targets save it still leaves them stunned for 1 round. So its not broken, but it seems to be overpowered.

[kestrel404]

Edit: What Arguskos said.

Just remember, this is an ability they can use at-will. There's no limit on the number of times they can use it per-day except the coll down time. Without the cool down time, anything you give them has to be balanced as if it were a Warlock's invocation, not a spell. Even with the cooldown time, you have to remember that the ability is something they can use in every encounter (usually twice).

[arguskos]

Not forever, just one round. Illusionary pit (6th level spell) is similar, lasting concentration +1 round(s), same wording (unable to act, not a named condition) and once that ends or if the targets save it still leaves them stunned for 1 round. So its not broken, but it seems to be overpowered.

Yeah, it IS broken. It's a stunlock chain. See, since there is no limitation on the ability or on how frequently it can be used and is an AoE at range, the Binder can just sit there and spam it constantly while the party just cleans up. No one ever gets to do anything while the party cruises through every combat with little challenge.

Comparing it to Illusory Pit is disingenuous for a few reasons. First, Illusory Pit actually does spell out what happens. If they fail the save, they fall prone and claw at the floor in place of other actions (instead of the stupid wording "unable to act" which can mean almost anything). If they make it, they're stunned for one round. It also doesn't affect flying creatures flying over the pit. Second, it takes 1 round to cast. Third, it's an Illusion (Glamer) spell, which many creatures are automatically immune to. None of these restrictions and concerns are at ALL addressed by your players vestige, and they all should be.

[Boci]

Yeah, it IS broken. It's a stunlock chain. See, since there is no limitation on the ability or on how frequently it can be used and is an AoE at range

Sorry, my poor wording, the affect has to be centered on the binder.

Comparing it to Illusory Pit is disingenuous for a few reasons. First, Illusory Pit actually does spell out what happens. If they fail the save, they fall prone and claw at the floor in place of other actions (instead of the stupid wording "unable to act" which can mean almost anything).

But in practical terms thats an advantage to illusionary pit. Both stop a creature from acting and are unamed conditions so its impossible to be immune to the conditions, and they are also prone, which gives melee attacks a +4 bonus.

Third, it's an Illusion (Glamer) spell,

Actually figment, although I'm not sure if that changes anything.

But yeah, those minor disagreemnts aside you've made your points. Too powerful as it is, needs changes.

[pffh]

Make that stun thing mind-affecting, spell out what condition it forces on the creature and usable once every five rounds and I would say it´s a strong 6th level vestige.

IIRC it would also be the only vestige with two 1/5 rounds abilities.

[The Shadowmind]

Make that stun thing mind-affecting, spell out what condition it forces on the creature and usable once every five rounds and I would say it´s a strong 6th level vestige.

IIRC it would also be the only vestige with two 1/5 rounds abilities.

Zceryll also has 2 1/5 round abilities. That is a webmaterial vestige though.

[Boci]

IIRC it would also be the only vestige with two 1/5 rounds abilities.

Haures has phantasmal killer and major image, both with a 5 round recharge. And speaking of Haures, the player said mind blank was the main feature and all the other abilities were just for the flavour of the vestige (some trapped being on the prison layer of the Abyss), so I'm sure he will settle for Haures.