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Thread: Helpless question.
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2010-11-23, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- The depths of my insanity
- Gender
Helpless question.
In the definition of the 'Helpless' condition, there is a bit that states "...or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy..." With this clause, how hard would it be to get someone from cowering to helpless?
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2010-11-23, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: Helpless question.
Tie them up or beat them to unconsciousness.
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2010-11-23, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Aberdeen, UK
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2010-11-23, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- The depths of my insanity
- Gender
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2010-11-23, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
- Location
- Aberdeen, UK
- Gender
Re: Helpless question.
Reduce either Dex/Str/Wis/Int/Cha to 0, or disarm them-->grapple-->pin. I'm sure there's about 500 spells that do this as well, but I'm not really a magic expert.
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2010-11-23, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Helpless question.
Someone paralysed or asleep is helpless I believe, as is someone with a statistic reduced to zero. NOT with nothing in that statistic, like zombies, but zero.
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2010-11-23, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- The depths of my insanity
- Gender
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2010-11-23, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Wandering in Harrekh
- Gender
Re: Helpless question.
Generally no. The conditions that cause a saving throw to be rolled are typically some sort of action (i.e. a spell is cast, an attack connects, a person is running for a set amount of time, etc).
EDIT: Note that weird things tend to happen when ability scores reach zero. You can read up on that here. For example, if a character has zero strength or dexterity, he probably wouldn't be eligible for a Reflex save. An intelligence of zero might make a character immune to mind-affecting effects. None of that is spelled out explicitly, but I would say that a fair number of DMs would make such a ruling.Last edited by Telonius; 2010-11-23 at 02:47 PM.
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2010-11-23, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Helpless question.
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*As a DM I run sand-box games.
Challenge me.
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2010-11-23, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
- Location
- Aberdeen, UK
- Gender
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2010-11-23, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
Re: Helpless question.
If you can't move you suddenly run out of luck?
No, he'd still get a Reflex save. You get Reflex saves when you're unconscious. Reflex denotes luck as well as, you know, pure reflexes. How else do you dodge explosions?!
And this isn't an interpretation, this is explicitly spelled out. You always get Reflex saves. Period.
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2010-11-23, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: Helpless question.
Well, in the SRD section on Evasion:
As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.
As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.
The rules compendium says this about Evasion:
A bound creature or one squeezing through an area can’t use evasion.
You can make a Reflex save whenever one is called for, but your Dexterity or whether you can apply its modifier might be altered by the situation.Last edited by Thurbane; 2010-11-23 at 08:46 PM.
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2010-11-23, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Helpless question.
You duck and cover, or jump forward with the explosion behind you Hollywood style.
I'd say that if you're completely helpless you shouldn't get a reflex save.
And I'm not too sure if you get Reflex saves when you are unconscious. I haven't checked, but it really doesn't sound like it would be the case in RAW.
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2010-11-23, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Gender
Re: Helpless question.
I'd recommend sneak attack with drow poison, cowering creatures lose their dex AC so they can be sneaked or suddened, and the drow poison will DC13 fort KO them.
The only difference from doing this from ranged or melee is that from range you can fire, see that they are knocked out, then move (this is contextual cheating, really)-- where as melee you'd have to move, attack and then wait for next round.
Beside them as they are helpless? Coup de gras.
Alternatively, the spell dancing chains could be used with drow poison, you'd get 1 grappler to control per level as a caster to aid in grappling, and they can deal lethal damage with their razor barbs that can apply drow poison.
But, I'd concentrate on doing something that would require them to move... like cloudkill with cloudy conjuration for instance..... heh.Last edited by Lev; 2010-11-23 at 08:48 PM.