What no one mentioned about the tier system...

[WarKitty]

...is that it's really hard to not break a caster. *rant warning ahead*

Seriously. I picked a druid because I like the whole druid feel. Admittedly I used some cheese to get ridiculous wisdom, but I'm still sticking to 1-2 spells per encounter. And it's still hard to not clean up encounters by yourself without going straight to ineffectiveness. I built a controller with the idea that it would make it easier for the non-casters to be useful as well. Turns out I can *still* dominate an encounter without trying.

I'd just like to, you know, play a fun character with the whole I can tap into nature and mess you up feel. I'm not trying to break the game, but it gets a little annoying having to try to not break the game, while not turning myself into a glorified wand of energy damage.

[Psyren]

You could be a Wildshape Ranger, Shugenja or Spirit Shaman; those are all nature-focused but less powerful.

And yes, Druids (even the nerfbat-smacked Pathfinder Druid) are pretty ridiculous in 3.5.

[mostlyharmful]

to be fair druid is by far and away the easiest to break, you can just about not go wrong by just picking natural spell and having a positive Con and Wis.

Cleric and Wizard are both MUCH easier to play at lower levels of optifu

[WarKitty]

I'm not even really using wildshape for anything other than a good fly speed and some AC; it's just being the only full caster in the party that seems to do it. And I *like* playing casters. I'm guessing it would be the same issue with a wizard or cleric.

[Frosty]

You should play a Pathfinder Witch whose patron is a nature-based one. Take Brew potions one of your Hexes. Pump Survival (no CC crap in PF), and have lotsa fun! you can have plenty of nature-fluff with a cackling witch from the woods.

[WarKitty]

You should play a Pathfinder Witch whose patron is a nature-based one. Take Brew potions one of your Hexes. Pump Survival (no CC crap in PF), and have lotsa fun! you can have plenty of nature-fluff with a cackling witch from the woods.

But I have a class that I like? Seriously, I love the druid feel, I much prefer divine casters over arcane and I love having the chance to play out my own more panentheistic beliefs. I just don't want to be the one always trying to figure out how to keep things balanced.

Edit: Really though, I think this would be an issue with any sort of full caster. It's just hard not to blow things up with spells.

[Frosty]

You can play a Cleric who worships Ehlonna? If you must play a a druid, then at least use the PF one.

[Analytica]

Then add more fluff. If you can't see exactly why a given spell makes perfect sense within your character's belief system, don't use it. Never be in wildshape for mechanical reasons, only don animal forms because of whatever virtues they symbolize. Devise some form of ritual that your character feels combat should play out as, and avoid deviating from it as anything else would be less sacred ("First those Chosen to die shall be bound to the ground. Second their blood shall water the soil. Only then may I dine on the life-giving nectar, and only then shall I call down the levinbolt!").

I realize many people share your experience. For my part it rarely happens. This is probably because I suck at most optimization, but partly I think it is because I do mostly flavour choices. "Grease? Color spray? That would look silly. Also I have a fire focus because of my backstory, so I will only use fire spells. Polymorph? Given how cool my outfit looks, why would I transform into something that isn't even humanoid?"

Note that this is me as a player thinking those things, not my character. My character simply hasn't done a thorough simulation of what spell combinations are most effective, despite her ridiculous Intelligence and Knowledge skills. Those go towards understanding the in-game metaphysics behind the magic, but not necessarily towards understanding the full consequences of this particular rules representation of those metaphysics. Other people may certainly interpret this differently, of course.

[WarKitty]

You can play a Cleric who worships Ehlonna? If you must play a a druid, then at least use the PF one.

We're already playing PF. And (1) this didn't come up until midway through the campaign, so I can't exactly change class now. (2) It's not the wildshape that's the issue. I haven't been in melee since second level. It's being a full caster in a noncaster party.

Then add more fluff. If you can't see exactly why a given spell makes perfect sense within your character's belief system, don't use it. Never be in wildshape for mechanical reasons, only don animal forms because of whatever virtues they symbolize. Devise some form of ritual that your character feels combat should play out as, and avoid deviating from it as anything else would be less sacred ("First those Chosen to die shall be bound to the ground. Second their blood shall water the soil. Only then may I dine on the life-giving nectar, and only then shall I call down the levinbolt!").

I realize many people share your experience. For my part it rarely happens. This is probably because I suck at most optimization, but partly I think it is because I do mostly flavour choices. "Grease? Color spray? That would look silly. Also I have a fire focus because of my backstory, so I will only use fire spells. Polymorph? Given how cool my outfit looks, why would I transform into something that isn't even humanoid?"

Note that this is me as a player thinking those things, not my character. My character simply hasn't done a thorough simulation of what spell combinations are most effective, despite her ridiculous Intelligence and Knowledge skills. Those go towards understanding the in-game metaphysics behind the magic, but not necessarily towards understanding the full consequences of this particular rules representation of those metaphysics. Other people may certainly interpret this differently, of course.

See that's what I've *been* doing. I focused in specifically on control spells because that was the type of character I want to play. No call lightning. No contagion. Just walls and AoE control spells. And it still breaks things.

[Amphetryon]

What's the rest of the party look like? More insight there can lead to a better understanding of how to approach encounters, as a Druid, without overshadowing the lot of them.

[WarKitty]

What's the rest of the party look like? More insight there can lead to a better understanding of how to approach encounters, as a Druid, without overshadowing the lot of them.

Ok two-part thing.

One, this is just me ranting. I'm tired of having to consider how to not steal the spotlight all the time, when none of the other players are having to do that. I built a controller. I emphatically do not want to play a direct damage-dealer. I'm feeling like my character concept is the one that's always "change your character, don't play like this or this or this" when I just want to play the stupid game with my friends and sling some magic around because I like slinging cool magic around, and I like messing people up rather than just dealing damage. I don't want to change the character who's personality and strategies I have developed so everyone else can have fun at the expense of my own. And having to constantly think "is this going to overshadow someone else" is making it less fun because I can't let myself just play the character.

Two, so far we have an alchemist, two barbarians (one ranged), one fighter (usually ignored because she whines), one ranger, and a sorc/fighter.

[Psyren]

And having to constantly think "is this going to overshadow someone else" is making it less fun because I can't let myself just play the character.

It sounds like your teammates need to suck less optimize more.

Maybe you can direct them to these forums for some character sheet pimping?
Your DM will automatically follow suit once you all start breezing through encounters as a unit.

[mucat]

Have you thought about multiclassing?

Multiclassing to a non-caster class, or taking a PrC without full spell progression, is widely called a foolish move because the character inevitibly ends up less powerful. Which actually makes it a great move, when you want a caster who retains all their flavor but doesn't outpower the rest of the team. Just let your druid take a few levels in another class that fits her personality -- ranger, rogue, even wizard if she's got a scholarly side.

If anything, the character has more flavor than before, and she's still got enough power to pull her own weight...just not enough to pull everyone else's weight too.

It sounds like your teammates need to suck less optimize more.

Maybe you can direct them to these forums for some character sheet pimping?
Your DM will automatically follow suit once you all start breezing through encounters as a unit.

If they're happy playing low-op, the last thing they need is to start letting the internet help them design their characters.

[AstralFire]

Try reclassing yourself as a divine bard with druid spells and wild shape? I understand your frustration, though.

[WarKitty]

Have you thought about multiclassing?

Multiclassing to a non-caster class, or taking a PrC without full spell progression, is widely called a foolish move because the character inevitibly ends up less powerful. Which actually makes it a great move, when you want a caster who retains all their flavor but doesn't outpower the rest of the team. Just let your druid take a few levels in another class that fits her personality -- ranger, rogue, even wizard if she's got a scholarly side.

If anything, the character has more flavor than before, and she's still got enough power to pull her own weight...just not enough to pull everyone else's weight too.

Main problem I have is if it isn't wis-based I *suck* at it. Not 100% suck at int-based stuff, but they're not good. My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low. I thought about dipping cleric but our DM won't let us do the cleric of an ideal thing, and I've set her up as a pseudo-atheist already.

Ugh. If they're happy playing low-op, the last thing they need is to start letting the internet help them design their characters.

Why is it that they're the ones that get priority though? There's 3 high-op and 3 low-op players, why should the low-op get priority? (And one of the other high-op players has expressed the same thing. The other one just annoys everyone.) Like I said, I'm getting tired of being the one trying to make it work as a group and spending extra time doing research to accommodate someone else's character because someone else doesn't want to do that work to accommodate mine.

I dunno, I always thought the issue was that non-casters aren't powerful enough, not that a well-played caster is too much. If I'm supposed to be playing heroic fantasy, why can't I unleash my fun physics-breaking spells instead of plodding along playing a support role?

[Tengu_temp]

Do your fellow players mind that you win encounters on your own with your spells? Or do they have the "she deals no damage while I deal a lot, so all the glory is mine" mindset? If the latter then problem solved, everyone is happy! If the former then I got nothing. Try focusing more on buffs and direct damage spells, maybe?

[WarKitty]

Do your fellow players mind that you win encounters on your own with your spells? Or do they have the "she deals no damage while I deal a lot, so all the glory is mine" mindset? If the latter then problem solved, everyone is happy! If the former then I got nothing. Try focusing more on buffs and direct damage spells, maybe?

I think two or three of them have some issues. I'm going to go with two, because I have a feeling the third would have issues no matter what. The thing is, "more buffs/direct damage spells" is exactly what I don't want to do. It just flips the issue - all of a sudden, instead of overtaking encounters, I'm superfluous in them.

[TheMeMan]

Main problem I have is if it isn't wis-based I *suck* at it. Not 100% suck at int-based stuff, but they're not good. My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low. I thought about dipping cleric but our DM won't let us do the cleric of an ideal thing, and I've set her up as a pseudo-atheist already.



Why is it that they're the ones that get priority though? There's 3 high-op and 3 low-op players, why should the low-op get priority? (And one of the other high-op players has expressed the same thing. The other one just annoys everyone.) Like I said, I'm getting tired of being the one trying to make it work as a group and spending extra time doing research to accommodate someone else's character because someone else doesn't want to do that work to accommodate mine.

I dunno, I always thought the issue was that non-casters aren't powerful enough, not that a well-played caster is too much. If I'm supposed to be playing heroic fantasy, why can't I unleash my fun physics-breaking spells instead of plodding along playing a support role?

Partly because choosing a Druid is essentially starting the game saying "You guys are the back seat to me! Watch what I can do!" Effectively, your ruin the game by merely being a Druid. They are that strong, and almost always completely outshine every other player.

The problem, then, is your mindset. You seem to want to be a solo machine, you want to blow up the world single-handedly.

Which is a problem in a group game.

[Amphetryon]

AoE effects like Entangle that don't damage, and Summons that are mostly fliers so that they mainly scout ahead would likely address much of the perceived problem.

Part of the issue seems to be trying to please everyone, though. That's famously difficult.

[Caphi]

Multiclassing to a non-caster class, or taking a PrC without full spell progression, is widely called a foolish move because the character inevitibly ends up less powerful. Which actually makes it a great move, when you want a caster who retains all their flavor but doesn't outpower the rest of the team. Just let your druid take a few levels in another class that fits her personality -- ranger, rogue, even wizard if she's got a scholarly side.

Not really sure I agree with the character having more "flavor", because the concept of how flavorful a character is is notoriously slippery, but +1 to the rest of this. You can dump your casting down to 5s or 6s at 20 and contribute to a low-op party great. You'll be worse than a regular wizard/sorceror/cleric/druid 20, but you'll still do better at being a paladin/ranger/soldier-guy that uses magic tricks to mess up the battlefield than an actual paladin/ranger/anything. (I have such a paladin character right now, with paladin 2 mixed in for background+DG.)

In your case, you might want to sacrifice a few casting levels (not that many, let your field control lose its punch to scaling saves) in exchange for some PrC features that give you extra tricks for support or utility?

[TheMeMan]

AoE effects like Entangle that don't damage, and Summons that are mostly fliers so that they mainly scout ahead would likely address much of the perceived problem.

Part of the issue seems to be trying to please everyone, though. That's famously difficult.

Ah, but the person doesn't want to change tactics. As is rather apparent, they want to go "Boom-Boom! I win!". Which is a problem when choosing a class that, even with minimal optimization, can completely outshine many optimized builds that would normally be perfectly strong. Pleasing everyone isn't the issue here, really. Not wanting to be a part of a group seems to be, which is rather evident from the player's choice in class, and how he wants to play it.

[JaronK]

Heh, this is what the tier system was specifically written to deal with, theoretically in advance. And you seem to be grating over the fact that the solution is for you to pick up the idiot ball on a regular basis, and you're finding that grating. It's understandable. It breaks RP and it means you don't get to try and solve encounters... you instead sit there figuring out how to not solve them too quickly.

One possible thing that could help is that UA has two bard variants. The first is the divine bard, which just makes bards, well, divine. The second is a bard that swaps a few things to get an animal companion. If you did both of these, you'd be weaker, but still a divine nature themed caster. So that's something to consider. Wild Shaped Ranger was also mentioned in this thread, though it sounds like WS isn't what the problem is... and Healers won't outshine anyone, plus they're divine. Warmages would be fun, but not divine.

JaronK

[AstralFire]

Ah, but the person doesn't want to change tactics. As is rather apparent, they want to go "Boom-Boom! I win!". Which is a problem when choosing a class that, even with minimal optimization, can completely outshine many optimized builds that would normally be perfectly strong. Pleasing everyone isn't the issue here, really. Not wanting to be a part of a group seems to be, which is rather evident from the player's choice in class, and how he wants to play it.

I think you're reading too much into the situation. From WarKitty's past posts, she seems to me like someone who likes most aspects of her group, likes the flavor of her class, and also wants to get a chance to flex her competence rather than self-hindering. It's not that strange; it's the flip side of people who want to be good with Monks or Truenamers.

[Sipex]

I'm confused, you're playing a non-damaging build so you're just locking up enemies.

How is anyone in your group upset with this?

[Ungvar]

So how exactly are you dominating to such a degree that no one else ever shines?

How about walking us through a representative encounter, and that will help us understand where the problem truly lies.

[WarKitty]

Ah, but the person doesn't want to change tactics. As is rather apparent, they want to go "Boom-Boom! I win!". Which is a problem when choosing a class that, even with minimal optimization, can completely outshine many optimized builds that would normally be perfectly strong. Pleasing everyone isn't the issue here, really. Not wanting to be a part of a group seems to be, which is rather evident from the player's choice in class, and how he wants to play it.

Partly because choosing a Druid is essentially starting the game saying "You guys are the back seat to me! Watch what I can do!" Effectively, your ruin the game by merely being a Druid. They are that strong, and almost always completely outshine every other player.

The problem, then, is your mindset. You seem to want to be a solo machine, you want to blow up the world single-handedly.

Which is a problem in a group game.

Not really. I'm just feeling like my options are "Go Boom-Boom! I win!" or "sit around doing 2d6 of damage while the barbarian is doing 3d6+str and tripping people." I'd be happiest if everyone could have a good Boom option, honestly. Failing that, I'd at least like to not force anyone to take a backseat to me without myself fading into the background.

AoE effects like Entangle that don't damage, and Summons that are mostly fliers so that they mainly scout ahead would likely address much of the perceived problem.

Part of the issue seems to be trying to please everyone, though. That's famously difficult.

Yeah you may be right, especially since I'm not the only high-op person that tends to overshadow people. Which is part of my complaint - if we have 3 high-op and 3 low-op, why is it the high-op has to hold back so that the low-op doesn't have to bother to bring their characters up?

Heh, this is what the tier system was specifically written to deal with, theoretically in advance. And you seem to be grating over the fact that the solution is for you to pick up the idiot ball on a regular basis, and you're finding that grating. It's understandable. It breaks RP and it means you don't get to try and solve encounters... you instead sit there figuring out how to not solve them too quickly.

One possible thing that could help is that UA has two bard variants. The first is the divine bard, which just makes bards, well, divine. The second is a bard that swaps a few things to get an animal companion. If you did both of these, you'd be weaker, but still a divine nature themed caster. So that's something to consider. Wild Shaped Ranger was also mentioned in this thread, though it sounds like WS isn't what the problem is... and Healers won't outshine anyone, plus they're divine. Warmages would be fun, but not divine.

JaronK

Unfortunately not an option to do mid-campaign. I knew about the tier system, I just didn't expect it to kick in with a vengeance the minute I got 3rd-level spells. Plus it's bad for all of us if I lose caster levels, because as the only full caster I've got a few of the spells that you really need when you need.

I sort of figured the problems wouldn't kick in for another 5 levels or so, which we weren't supposed to reach. That's part of the issue - I went in thinking "oh, we're ending at level 12 or so, it won't be an issue."

So how exactly are you dominating to such a degree that no one else ever shines?

How about walking us through a representative encounter, and that will help us understand where the problem truly lies.

Will try to get to this tonight. Need to get off the computer.

[Calmar]

Admittedly I used some cheese to get ridiculous wisdom, but I'm still sticking to 1-2 spells per encounter.

My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low.

Why did you build your druid that way? Do you rely on wildshape for any physical capability?

[WarKitty]

Why did you build your druid that way? Do you rely on wildshape for any physical capability?

No, I was going for the squishy caster so I didn't end up dominating both melee and casting. Which, admittedly, is my major weakness - no hit points and no melee abilities at all.

Also, rolled stats.

[mucat]

Main problem I have is if it isn't wis-based I *suck* at it. Not 100% suck at int-based stuff, but they're not good. My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low. I thought about dipping cleric but our DM won't let us do the cleric of an ideal thing, and I've set her up as a pseudo-atheist already.

Would it work to take a martial or sneaky class, and then use it when in a wildshape with the appropriate ability scores?

Why is it that they're the ones that get priority though? There's 3 high-op and 3 low-op players, why should the low-op get priority?

Ah; I'd thought it was more like a single high-op character in a low-op party. With a 50/50 split, it makes sense to ask both groups to give a little.

Partly because choosing a Druid is essentially starting the game saying "You guys are the back seat to me! Watch what I can do!" Effectively, your ruin the game by merely being a Druid. They are that strong, and almost always completely outshine every other player.

The problem, then, is your mindset. You seem to want to be a solo machine, you want to blow up the world single-handedly.

Which is a problem in a group game.

That is entirely unfair. She said that she's playing a druid for the flavor, and finds its overpowered nature (no pun intended) an inconvenience. To assume that people only play Tier-1 classes because they want power is absurd. Two of my favorite classes, from a flavor standpoint, are Wizard and Druid. I'm glad when a DM proposes a way to tone down these classes; it means I can play them without having to think of ways to keep them from dominating the game.

(In fact, that's why I suggested multiclassing; it's become one of my favorite tricks for building a caster who can try their best in every encounter, without automatically winning them.)

[WarKitty]

Would it work to take a martial or sneaky class, and then use it when in a wildshape with the appropriate ability scores?

PF, sorry. Wildshape no longer means you get the ability scores of your new form. Also my main concern about lost caster levels is I'm the *only* full caster. We're already hurting for lack of some key "remove status effect" spells that are on the sorc/wiz list.