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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ryu_Bonkosi's Avatar

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    Default Helpless question.

    In the definition of the 'Helpless' condition, there is a bit that states "...or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy..." With this clause, how hard would it be to get someone from cowering to helpless?
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    A player is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisly when the plot dictates he should.
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    Greenish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Tie them up or beat them to unconsciousness.
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    Zieu's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Tie them up or beat them to unconsciousness.
    I agree. It seems this suggestion just can't....


    -puts on shades-


    ....be beaten.

    YEAHHHHHHHHH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht
    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg
    A certain divine ability confused me so much. I was playing the PC game "Icewind Dale", and got to an undead-infested area. I clicked a button, and tried to walk past them. Sure enough, they started attacking me. "Why are they attacking me," I asked myself. "I'm one of them. I already used..."

    "TURN UNDEAD"
    Pardon me sir, but I think you dropped these sunglasses.
    YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!


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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ryu_Bonkosi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    That did occur to me but are there any other ways?
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    Zieu's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Reduce either Dex/Str/Wis/Int/Cha to 0, or disarm them-->grapple-->pin. I'm sure there's about 500 spells that do this as well, but I'm not really a magic expert.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht
    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg
    A certain divine ability confused me so much. I was playing the PC game "Icewind Dale", and got to an undead-infested area. I clicked a button, and tried to walk past them. Sure enough, they started attacking me. "Why are they attacking me," I asked myself. "I'm one of them. I already used..."

    "TURN UNDEAD"
    Pardon me sir, but I think you dropped these sunglasses.
    YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!


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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Someone paralysed or asleep is helpless I believe, as is someone with a statistic reduced to zero. NOT with nothing in that statistic, like zombies, but zero.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ryu_Bonkosi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Ok, sort of a related question. Is a saving throw considered an action?
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    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Generally no. The conditions that cause a saving throw to be rolled are typically some sort of action (i.e. a spell is cast, an attack connects, a person is running for a set amount of time, etc).

    EDIT: Note that weird things tend to happen when ability scores reach zero. You can read up on that here. For example, if a character has zero strength or dexterity, he probably wouldn't be eligible for a Reflex save. An intelligence of zero might make a character immune to mind-affecting effects. None of that is spelled out explicitly, but I would say that a fair number of DMs would make such a ruling.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2010-11-23 at 02:47 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zieu View Post
    Reduce either Dex/Str/Wis/Int/Cha to 0, or disarm them-->grapple-->pin. I'm sure there's about 500 spells that do this as well, but I'm not really a magic expert.
    Reducing attributes is the easy way indeed.

    But grapple can't make you helpless.
    from the srd:
    When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round.
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *As a DM I run sand-box games.
    Challenge me.

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Otodetu View Post
    But grapple can't make you helpless.
    from the srd:
    When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round.
    Uh oh. Don't tell my DM...
    Last edited by Zieu; 2010-11-23 at 07:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht
    Quote Originally Posted by zyborg
    A certain divine ability confused me so much. I was playing the PC game "Icewind Dale", and got to an undead-infested area. I clicked a button, and tried to walk past them. Sure enough, they started attacking me. "Why are they attacking me," I asked myself. "I'm one of them. I already used..."

    "TURN UNDEAD"
    Pardon me sir, but I think you dropped these sunglasses.
    YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!


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    - Gaius in Dead to Rights
    - Basaran in With Hearts of Iron

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    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    For example, if a character has zero strength or dexterity, he probably wouldn't be eligible for a Reflex save.
    If you can't move you suddenly run out of luck?

    No, he'd still get a Reflex save. You get Reflex saves when you're unconscious. Reflex denotes luck as well as, you know, pure reflexes. How else do you dodge explosions?!

    And this isn't an interpretation, this is explicitly spelled out. You always get Reflex saves. Period.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2010-11-23 at 08:25 PM.
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    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Well, in the SRD section on Evasion:
    As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

    As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.
    The implication there is if you don't have room to move, you wouldn't get a reflex save. Not spelled out terribly clearly, though...

    The rules compendium says this about Evasion:
    A bound creature or one squeezing through an area cant use evasion.
    However, in the Rules Compendium on Reflex Saves:
    You can make a Reflex save whenever one is called for, but your Dexterity or whether you can apply its modifier might be altered by the situation.
    Which is saying you always get a save, but your DEX modifier might not apply.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    If you can't move you suddenly run out of luck?

    No, he'd still get a Reflex save. You get Reflex saves when you're unconscious. Reflex denotes luck as well as, you know, pure reflexes. How else do you dodge explosions?!

    And this isn't an interpretation, this is explicitly spelled out. You always get Reflex saves. Period.
    You duck and cover, or jump forward with the explosion behind you Hollywood style.

    I'd say that if you're completely helpless you shouldn't get a reflex save.

    And I'm not too sure if you get Reflex saves when you are unconscious. I haven't checked, but it really doesn't sound like it would be the case in RAW.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Helpless question.

    I'd recommend sneak attack with drow poison, cowering creatures lose their dex AC so they can be sneaked or suddened, and the drow poison will DC13 fort KO them.

    The only difference from doing this from ranged or melee is that from range you can fire, see that they are knocked out, then move (this is contextual cheating, really)-- where as melee you'd have to move, attack and then wait for next round.

    Beside them as they are helpless? Coup de gras.

    Alternatively, the spell dancing chains could be used with drow poison, you'd get 1 grappler to control per level as a caster to aid in grappling, and they can deal lethal damage with their razor barbs that can apply drow poison.


    But, I'd concentrate on doing something that would require them to move... like cloudkill with cloudy conjuration for instance..... heh.
    Last edited by Lev; 2010-11-23 at 08:48 PM.

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