Any suggestions for my Masterthrower build?

[Farlion]

Hi Playgrounders,

I'm currently making a Whisper Gnome Fighter/Rogue going into Masterthrower. For the moment he will be level 6.

Books: All the "Races of...", All the Completes (except Complete Champion), PHB1 and 2.

Build so far:

Fighter 1 / Rogue 5

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Throwing Knives).


We're going by WBL, so I'll have 13k to spend.

What do you think of the following items:

- +1 studded leather armor of Shadow and of Silent Moves (+5 Hide/Move Silently)
- Ring of Sustenance
- Cloak of the Elvekind (Does this stack with my armor?)
- Boots of Spiderclimbing
- MW Thievestools

But: what weapons should I buy? Or should I simply use Masterwork Throwing Knives and rely on my Sneak Attack Damage?

Thanks alot!

Cheers,
Farlion

[Rixx]

You're gonna need Quick Draw!

[Farlion]

Yes, good catch! Totally missed that one. Damn, where do I get that feat from...

I might have to take another fighter level, ending up with Fighter 2 / Rogue 5 before entering Masterthrower (I need BaB +5 anyway before I can take Masterthrower).

So Feats for level 6: Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

[gorfnab]

Yes, good catch! Totally missed that one. Damn, where do I get that feat from...

Well, Master Thrower does give you Quick Draw as a bonus feat at the first level of the prestige class...

Here are some builds I made for a friend looking for a similar type of character. Basically they're all Invisible Blade dagger throwing maniacs that can throw 16 daggers per round at level 20. These are Halfling based.

Invisible Blade 1

Spoiler

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Halfling
1. Rogue - Halfling Rogue RS - Point Blank Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Precise Shot
4. Rogue - Halfling Rogue RS
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Weapon Focus Dagger
8. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
9. Master Thrower - Far Shot
10. Whisperknife - B: Rapid Shot
11. Whisperknife
12. Whisperknife - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical Dagger, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Halfling Rogue Racial Substitution - Races of the Wild page 160
Whisperknife - Races of the Wild page 135
Swashbuckler - Complete Warrior page 11
Master Thrower - Complete Warrior page 58
Invisible Blade - Complete Warrior page 45

Master Thrower weapon triks - Palm Throw (level 8), Two With One Blow (13), Weak Spot (15)

Invisible Blade 2

Spoiler

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Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Craven
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8. Fighter - B: Far Shot
9. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadow Blade
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Strongheart Halfling from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting page 17 or 18
Craven feat from Champions of Ruin page 17
Swordsage from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords page 15
Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle page 32
Penetrating Strike Alternate Class Feature from Dungeonscape page 13

Invisible Blade 3

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Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF(DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade
7. Swashbuckler
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Vital Aim
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Love of Nature flaw from Dragon Magazine #324 page 93
Loud Mouth flaw from Dragon Magazine #324 page 98
Targeteer ACF and Vital Aim from Dragon Magazine #310 page 39
Dead Eye feat from Dragon Magazine #304 page 84

However, considering the books you have access to and your choice of Whisper Gnome I would suggest this build if you're not too worried about your AC and find Invisible Blade useful.

Spoiler

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1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Precise Shot
4. Rogue
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Weapon Focus: Dagger
7. Fighter - B: Two Weapon Fighting
8. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
9. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Master Thrower
11. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
12. Master Thrower - Far Shot, B: Improved Critical: Dagger
13. Fighter - B: Rapid Shot
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Rogue
20. Rogue

Or this build if you think AC is going to be a problem, don't want Invisible Blade, and want more sneak attack.

Spoiler

Show

1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Precise Shot
4. Rogue
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Weapon Focus: Dagger
7. Fighter - B: Two Weapon Fighting
8. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
9. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Master Thrower
11. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
12. Master Thrower - Improved Buckler Defense, B: Improved Critical: Dagger
13. Fighter - B: Rapid Shot
14. Rogue
15. Rogue - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Rogue
17. Rogue
18. Rogue - Improved Precise Shot
19. Rogue
20. Rogue - B: Daring Outlaw

[Farlion]

Hi gorfnab,

thanks for your suggestions.

Some questions:
- Why do I need weapon finesse? I'm using ranged weapons anyway.
- I'd like to have some sneak attack damage, the build you suggest doesn't seem to get that much SA right?
- I'd like to stay with 2 base classes and 1 PrC.
- If you go Swashbuckler and don't pick up daring outlaw, isn't that kind of a shame?
- I was also playing around with Swashbuckler 3 for Insightful Strike, but somehow I miss out on feats if I don't go with Fighter.
- Whats so good about the invisible blade if you want to stay in ranged combat (meaning you are most probably attacking a flanked enemy anyway)?
- Your Masterthrower feats are actually not what I had in mind ;-P I was going for Palm Throw (two daggers per attack) and Weak Spot (ranged touch against targets your size or larger) and Trip Shot.

Cheers,
Farlion

P.S: The second build suggestion is more to my linking. ;-P

[gorfnab]

Hi gorfnab,
- Why do I need weapon finesse? I'm using ranged weapons anyway.

Considering you provoke attacks of opportunity when throwing weapons in combat and also since your Dex is probably going to be insane Weapon Finesse will let you be decent in melee (flanking + two weapon fighting = lots of sneak attacks).

- I'd like to have some sneak attack damage, the build you suggest doesn't seem to get that much SA right?

Well the first Whisper Gnome build gets 6d6 sneak attack and the second one gets 7d6. You can up that an additional +1d6 with a Rogue's Vest from the Magic Item Compendium.

- I'd like to stay with 2 base classes and 1 PrC.
- If you go Swashbuckler and don't pick up daring outlaw, isn't that kind of a shame?

Throwing builds are feat intensive. Plus it would really only get you an additional +1d6 sneak attack, +2d6 if you build right. And if you're DM somehow enforces multiclass penalties Rogue levels don't count since it's a favored class and prestige class levels do not count as normal.

- I was also playing around with Swashbuckler 3 for Insightful Strike, but somehow I miss out on feats if I don't go with Fighter.

Insightful Strike is a great damage boost for Rogue based dagger throwing builds. That extra +Int damage per dagger is kinda sweet at high levels.

- Whats so good about the invisible blade if you want to stay in ranged combat (meaning you are most probably attacking a flanked enemy anyway)?

It gives you something to do in melee, full BAB, more sneak attack, and Int to AC in no armor (you can still wear Bracers though). Bleeding Wound can be fun too.

- Your Masterthrower feats are actually not what I had in mind ;-P I was going for Palm Throw (two daggers per attack) and Weak Spot (ranged touch against targets your size or larger) and Trip Shot.

Yeah, read the class again. What I have listed is the Bonus Feats Master Thrower gives you, not its Thrown Weapon Tricks. For these builds I would recommend Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, and Weak Spot as the Thrown Weapon Tricks.

We're going by WBL, so I'll have 13k to spend.

What do you think of the following items:

- +1 studded leather armor of Shadow and of Silent Moves (+5 Hide/Move Silently)
- Ring of Sustenance
- Cloak of the Elvekind (Does this stack with my armor?)
- Boots of Spiderclimbing
- MW Thievestools

So you're spending 8k for +5 to Hide and Move Silently on a Whisper Gnome. Also the cloak does not stack with the armor. That's a little excessive and not as useful in most situations you'll encounter unless your DM will let you have the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness.

Try this:
+2 Mithral Shirt - 5100gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor - 2000gp
Ring of Sustenance - 2500gp
MW Thieves Tools - 100gp
Heward's Handy Haversack - 2000gp
Daggers, Daggers, Daggers, and more Daggers (MW ones too)
Scrolls of Spider Climb
Back up bludgeoning weapon(s) - Light Maces or Light Hammers maybe

Later on:
-Horizon Goggles (Complete Mage, if you go with the last build since these give you Far Shot)
-+X Mithral Buckler (if you go with the last build, Improved Buckler Defense)
-Wands of Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Vine Strike (Spell Compendium)
-Circlet of Persuasion (for Invisible Blade build, boosts Bluff and Use Magic Device)
-Ring of Blinking
-Rogue's Vest (Magic Item Compendium page 130)
-Gloves of Endless Javelins (Magic Item Compendium page 194) - see if your DM will allow you to change these to Gloves of Endless Daggers. Just adjust the damage to "dagger" damage (1d4 for dagger instead of 1d6 for javelin).
-Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (Magic Item Compendium page 101) - if your DM will not go for the above than see if he'll let you activate this item as a free action instead of a swift action so that you can actually create enough daggers to throw in a round.

[Farlion]

Thanks alot!

Now I'm really getting there. So I think I'll go for Swashbuckler3/Rogue3 as a start. Is there any way, I can get around taking 1 level of Fighter at level 7? I would like to stay with 2 base classes, but somehow I always miss out on a feat to enter Master Thrower. But I'll ask my DM on that as well.

I'm not really into Strongheart Halflings or humans, so I might have to ask my DM about flaws...

Otherwise I might have to enter Masterthrower later on.

On an other note: Why Snatch arrows? And how do I qualify for it? (I'm AFB, does the Master Thrower get this feat without prequisits?)

Cheers,
Farlion

[grarrrg]

I'm currently making a Whisper Gnome Fighter/Rogue going into Masterthrower.

All of you are going about this all wrong, you're just making a "Master Thrower (PrC)".

What you should be doing is making "The Master Thrower"

[Salanmander]

I'm a fan of having shuriken around as a master thrower, possibly even using them as your main weapon. The reason for this? Magic weapons. It's not very expensive to carry around 10 of six different kinds of "bane" shuriken, oils of flaming arrow, etc. and just stack on the bonus damage. I had a ton of damage going on with a small, 10 str using shuriken in a level 17ish game (mid op, casters picked reasonable spells, but steered away from ending the encounter in one go). I remember doing something like 10 (base) + 30 (magic weapon) + 20d6 (bane) + 10d6 (fire) + 20d6 (sneak attack) damage in one round.

You tend to throw away lots of wealth, but it's fun.

[Boci]

If you're willing to use javalins instead of daggers, gloves of endless javilins will allow you to use +1 javalins of force on every ranged attack, it only costs 7,000gp.

[Farlion]

Hi everyone,

is Palm Throw of any use for sneak attack dmg anyway? Since it's "one" attack, can I add my sneak attack dmg for each knife I throw?

Cheers,
Farlion

[gorfnab]

Thanks alot!
On an other note: Why Snatch arrows? And how do I qualify for it? (I'm AFB, does the Master Thrower get this feat without prequisits?)

Yes, Master Thrower gives you this feat for free without you having to meet the prereqs. As shown in my builds Master Thrower gives you Quick Draw, Snatch Arrows, and Improved Critical for free as bonus feats without you having to meet the prereqs.

Hi everyone,
is Palm Throw of any use for sneak attack dmg anyway? Since it's "one" attack, can I add my sneak attack dmg for each knife I throw?

Palm Throw is considered a volley attack. Only the first dagger thrown per attack roll would get sneak attack. If you had say BAB of +9/+4 and Palm Throw you would be able to throw 4 daggers in a round. Two of those daggers, one per attack roll (one at +9 BAB and one at +4 BAB), would get sneak attack damage. So at higher levels when you have BAB +16, Two Weapon Fighting et all, and Rapid Shot you would be throwing 16 daggers but only 8 of them would get sneak attack (again one per actual attack roll).