What is the Swordsage "signature"Discipline? [3.5]

[Dusk Eclipse]

We all know that each one of the martial initiator classes have a shtick they were supposed to do (despite the versatility they can achieve, both RP wise and combat wise)

The Crusader is the holy warrior, which is empowered by his beliefs.
The Warblade is a fighter by nature, who finds armed conflict as the solution to everything.
And the swordsage, a mystic who uses martial skill and just a tiny sprinkle of actual magic, they are the most meditative of the three.

(Just going by the fluff of the book BTW)

And to show this, they have access to a specific discipline that somehow shows their intended roles.

Crusaders have Devoted spirit which gives them the strength and fortitude to overcome any enemy, Warblades learn the Iron Heart way, pure martial skill, fighting made art; and finally Swordsages have the only way to access to Desert Wind, Setting Sun and Shadow hand.

My question is, which of those three disciplines could be considered the Swordsage "signature" discipline.

I ask this, because I have been toying with the idea of houserulling that martial adepts can select (at first level) which disciplines they will pursue; but to avoid getting all the best disciplines and still maintaining a bit of the intended roles of the classes. Restricting Devoted Spirit to crusader, Iron Hear to Warblade, but due the above reasons I can't decide which would be the Swordsage-only discipline.

What do you think about it?

Edit: I decided to tally people opinions, here is a nice handy table

[AstralFire]

I consider Desert Wind the iconic Swordsage discipline, myself - it's extremely flashy, movement focused, and while the Warblade focuses on one-target punishment and the Crusader on being a juggernaut, it gives the Swordsage mobility and the ability to take out mooks with a vengeance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think I'll start a tally of peoples thought.


BTW I forgot to say on the OP that personally I would say Shadow Hand, as Swordsages seems more like tricky fighters or combat pragmatist

[Knaight]

There are two I feel have compelling arguments.

The first of these is Shadow Hand. The Swordsage is the lightly armored one of the three, Shadow Hand has a fairly high focus on stealth and mobility, with some subtle magic. Crusaders really don't seem at all appropriate for stealth in their default roles, Warblades are more questionable, as they operate as light, mobile combatants sometimes as called to mind by Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw.

The other is Desert Wind. Its the most blatantly magical school, the sword sage is noted for magic. Warblades seem horribly inappropriate here, however a Crusader throwing around holy fire seems quite reasonable, if rare. This is not a very powerful school though, which is a point in favor for Shadow Hand.

The one that doesn't make sense is Setting Sun. Everyone should be able to throw people around eventually, its a vestige of being a monk alternative, and should be free to all.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So do I count that as a vote for Shadow Hand to be the swordsages?

[Foryn Gilnith]

The signature discipline of the quintessential Weeaboo Fighting Mage is obviously the school containing Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike. More seriously, when I take Swordsage levels to get its unique features I am generally thinking of Shadow Hand rather than judo or fire damage.

[Knaight]

So do I count that as a vote for Shadow Hand to be the swordsages?

Count it as a negative against Setting Sun.

[Emmerask]

Desert Wind and Shadow hand both in my oppinion

for the unarmed variant setting sun

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok that is another vote for shadow hand, I'll update the table

Also Foryn... when I started reading your post (the part of weaaboo fightig magic) I thought you were trying to troll, I am glad you didn't

[Morbis Meh]

desert wind

[Dusk Eclipse]

Emerask, please only choose one.

[Fortuna]

Going to have to throw in another vote against setting sun. It can't be the signature discipline because I always forget the damned thing!

[Ernir]

What do you think about it?

Eh... there isn't a Swordsage signature discipline, if you ask me. It's like asking what the signature school of a Wizard is. The class is designed to encompass multiple archetypes.


Desert Wind Swordsages are Hadoken-firing Flaming Fists of Fire-wielding swordmages.
Shadow Hand Sworsages are supernatural ninjas.
Setting Sun Swordsages are superhuman (but not overtly supernatural) martial artists.


In other words, I'm not voting, I'm expressing my doubts about the premise that leads to the vote. =/

[Knaight]

A compromise method.

Allow everyone but a swordsage to have either Desert Sun or Shadow Hand. Only the sword sage can have both. It looks like Setting Sun has absolutely no support as signature.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As I explained, for some reasons all the classes seems to have a signature school, and since I will ask the Crusaders have access to XXXX, Warblades access to YYYY and Swordsages to ZZZZ I wanted for them to be more customizable.

Does that make sense?

[Eldariel]

All 3 of them. Swordsage is defined by having many kinds of unique abilities. The mystical nature of Desert Wind and Shadow Hand both makes them pretty much signature schools since Swordsage is the mystical warrior, while Setting Sun drills in the unarmed, martial side of things. So, yeah, my answer is "all 3". It just sort of serves to make the point that Swordsages study a wider base of maneuvers than the others.

You could split SS into multiple "focuses" depending on which school he picks. But all 3 define different SSs.

[HunterOfJello]

In my mind their signature discipline is Shadow Hand.

I envision a swordsage as using an Elven Courtblade or Spiked Chain with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade who sneaks around in the dark and launches viscous attacks with deadly precision.

I do, however, enjoy the versatility and number of disciplines that swordsages have access to (barring Setting Sun which seems like it belongs to Warblades or Monks instead).

[Runestar]

Desert wind for me, if only because I have read chinese comics with characters who are a dead ringer for fire-based swordsages.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I actually really like the method that Knaight described above... though I think I'll continue with the voting for a bit more before I reach a decision

[Aquillion]

All three. The Swordsage is meant to cover broader conceptual ground than the Crusader and Warblade.

[Psyren]

I think we need to distinguish Armed and Unarmed Swordsages. Setting Sun makes way more sense for the latter.

And given the class focus on mind over matter, wouldn't Diamond Mind be pretty exemplary?

[FMArthur]

This is like asking what the Ardent class's signature mantle is. It's variable, designed to be as modular as possible.

The Swordsage is designed as an umbrella class for multiple different fantasy warrior archetypes without any obvious favoritism towards any in particular. The Swordsage can be a spiritual monk, a ninja, a studious martial artist, or whatever you want to be with its abilities. It is much more generic than even the two other martial adepts - you decide what the Swordsage is from how you make it, and not the other way around.

[Cespenar]

For me, it's Diamond Mind. While Warblades deal hot-blooded justice with Iron Heart, Swordsages feel like giving more importance to the mastery of mind. I don't know. Maybe it's because of the word "sage" in it.

[Godskook]

All three in terms of flavor, but from a balance perspective, either setting sun or shadow hand.

[Knaight]

For me, it's Diamond Mind. While Warblades deal hot-blooded justice with Iron Heart, Swordsages feel like giving more importance to the mastery of mind. I don't know. Maybe it's because of the word "sage" in it.

Except for Warblades actually having Diamond Mind as well. The signature disciplines are restricted to those only one class has access to.

[Ernir]

As I explained, for some reasons all the classes seems to have a signature school, and since I will ask the Crusaders have access to XXXX, Warblades access to YYYY and Swordsages to ZZZZ I wanted for them to be more customizable.

Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense. I just disagree with you on "all the classes seems to have a signature school". The Warblade and the Crusader do, but the Swordsage isn't as locked in an archetype. As should be evidenced by the fact that you had to make this thread!

[Eldariel]

Makes perfect sense. I just disagree with you on "all the classes seems to have a signature school". The Warblade and the Crusader do, but the Swordsage isn't as locked in an archetype. As should be evidenced by the fact that you had to make this thread!

Eh. I disagree with any of the classes being locked into one archetype, except maybe Crusader. Even Crusader is "battlefield marshal" vs. "holy warrior". Warblade can be anything from a "frenzied warrior" (Tiger Claw-user with Rabid X Strikes, Jumps and so on) to "swashbuckler" (Diamond Mind-user using Concentration strikes and such) to "frontline marshal" (White Raven-focus) to "weapons master" (iron heart focus) to various dual wielder variations (Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind most notably) and so on. And swordsage has more.

Note that Diamond Mind Swordsage is very different than Diamond Mind Warblade due to the differences in classes; Swordsage can get Wis to Damage and bonus to saves while in Diamond Mind Stances, while Warblade gets full BAB and bonus to Crit Confirmation and so on, so Warblade might be more interested in "one telling blow"-Strikes like the Nightmare Blade series while Swordsage might be more interested in multiple attacks like Avalanche of Blades and Time Stand Still. And in the hands of a Warblade, Rapid Counter is much better due to the AoO bonuses than in the hands of a Swordsage. So while they can have the same maneuvers, their focuses inside the discipline are different (and of course, the same discipline covers multiple archetypes for each). Which is why I think decisions like this are hard to make.

[Pechvarry]

I honestly feel like it's somehow *wrong* to consider any 1 of the 3 their signature school.

You could consider splitting the Swordsage into 3 identical classes, with access to the different disciplines. This is functionally similar to how Conjurers and Evokers are still Wizards. The Embers, the Stalkers, and the Meditants are all types of Swordsages, and thus any swordsage with shadow hand maneuvers would be unable to get the others.

I suppose that method locks out a lot of disciplines, though. I.e. no Desert Wind warblades and such. In this case, I'd choose Shadow Hand simply because it's typically the strongest.

[Tael]

Setting Sun needs more love! C'mon guys!
(Yes that is a vote, mostly to boost it from 0 to 1)

[Dusk Eclipse]

For what I see, it seems that the swordsage being the ultimate generalist is the point.... so I guess I'll leave them to hoard the Shadow hand, desert wind and setting sun discipline.

Still I will axe the pre-requisite non-sense and the Stone dragon "you must be touching ground".