What are the ways to navigate in uncharted territory?

[akma]

More specifically, abondoned areas of a massive underwater dungeon. I thought of an adventure idea, and I decided it would be cool if the BBEG will have his secret lair deep in an underwater dungeon.
I`ll probably do that no one could guide them deep enough, and I wondered what possible ways could a group of adventurers use to lead them to villain and navigate in a tricky 3 dimensionel dungeon (as wierd as it sounds, I`ll probably won`t draw any part of the dungeon). I assume there will be posts containing names of divination spells, but the only usable spell I can think of is scry (and it would be too deep for scry and teleport to work).
So, how would it be possible to navigate to the destination?

[nedz]

Dwarves - lots of Dwarven Rangers (or anyone with survival really)

[HunterOfJello]

This is what hirelings are for. Pay a bunch of mercenaries to scout out the tunnels in groups. Whichever groups don't return, you don't have to pay money to anyway.

[Dr.Epic]

In one campaign, I had a high level monk with improved evasion, and while investigating a dungeon, I had the idea to just use my improved speed to run through it and set off all the traps and dodge it with my evasion.

[Ernir]

Map of Unseen Lands, Magic Item Compendium.

The Find the Path spell.

[JonRG]

In one campaign, I had a high level monk with improved evasion, and while investigating a dungeon, I had the idea to just use my improved speed to run through it and set off all the traps and dodge it with my evasion.

Awesome. Too bad that when a trap triggered for my rogue (who just missed it), it filled the hall with saws and death and also alerted the BBEG to start buffing.

[LibraryOgre]

Since it's underwater, I can think of a few. The easiest is if you have a druid in the party... Conjure some water or earth elementals and have them map the watery areas for you. If you want to go low-tech and old school, Water Breathing and a grease pencil to mark on the walls.

[Dr.Epic]

Awesome. Too bad that when a trap triggered for my rogue (who just missed it), it filled the hall with saws and death and also alerted the BBEG to start buffing.

I don't think we went with that strategy though. I don't remember much about the dungeon (or campaign as it was a short one) but there was a vampire in the dungeon.

[Dimers]

You might get some use out of people's experiences with mapping Undermountain, in Faerun. Like your underwater dungeon, it's thoroughly 3-D and not something a PC can necessarily take lots of time to carefully map out.

[Frenchy147]

We were lost in a dungeon, and one of the players asked if he could smell the way out, like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. The DMs a big LOTR fan so he let him. He rolled teribly, but thats beside the point.

[akma]

You might get some use out of people's experiences with mapping Undermountain, in Faerun. Like your underwater dungeon, it's thoroughly 3-D and not something a PC can necessarily take lots of time to carefully map out.

I decided I won`t map it.
If I`ll ever run that adventure (which probably won`t heppen), the path the adventurers will take will be described as miles upon miles, and choosing random routes simply won`t work. I might map specific rooms and areas, and will do some encounters.

We were lost in a dungeon, and one of the players asked if he could smell the way out, like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. The DMs a big LOTR fan so he let him. He rolled teribly, but thats beside the point.

I don`t remmember that part. Did the character have a superhuman sense of smell?

[Dr.Epic]

We were lost in a dungeon, and one of the players asked if he could smell the way out, like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. The DMs a big LOTR fan so he let him. He rolled teribly, but thats beside the point.

If you had a high enough caster, Stone Shape. Also, I hate that line from LotR. I'm not sure if that's how they navigate the mines in the book (it's been a while since I read the Fellowship) but just the line Gandalf says: "when in doubt follow your nose." Really? Paraphrasing a cereal commercial in your medieval fantasy? And there's another line that references the Transformers: "There's more to his hobbit than meets the eye."

[akma]

but just the line Gandalf says: "when in doubt follow your nose." Really? Paraphrasing a cereal commercial in your medieval fantasy?

But cereal is tastey AND good for you!

[Dr.Epic]

But cereal is tastey AND good for you!

I don't care if he referenced Twinkies. They do not exist in that setting.

[hamishspence]

Gandalf says: "when in doubt follow your nose." Really? Paraphrasing a cereal commercial in your medieval fantasy? And there's another line that references the Transformers: "There's more to his hobbit than meets the eye."

In the book it was:

"I do not like the feel of the middle way and I do not like the smell of the left-hand way: there is foul air down there, or I am no guide. I shall take the right-hand passage. It is time we began to climb up again."

So- "follow your nose" was the movie director's line.

However, the other line, goes right back to the book:

"You take after Bilbo. There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago."

And LoTR considerably predates Transformers.

[Dr.Epic]

In the book it was:

"I do not like the feel of the middle way and I do not like the smell of the left-hand way: there is foul air down there, or I am no guide. I shall take the right-hand passage. It is time we began to climb up again."

So- "follow your nose" was the movie director's line.

I don't care if it was based off something in the book. Unless it was a quote, I don't want to hear a line that's the catchphrase of a cartoon bird and his sugar cereal.

However, the other line, goes right back to the book:

"You take after Bilbo. There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago."

And LoTR considerably predates Transformers.

Okay, that passes as exceptable. But still, every time I hear it, in the back of my mind the Transformer's theme starts.

[Randel]

There is the spell "marked homunculus" from the Eberron suplimental book Dragonmarked. Basically a 1st level spell that summons a homunculi for 1 hour per level but the user needs the Dragonmark of Making to cast it.

I tend to use it to summon Expiditious Messengers in any eberron game I can get away with. Used it once to scout out a city that was overrun with zombies while we were holed up in a building, scouted out a network of caverns to find the exit, and in another game I used it to track down some bandits across a forest and scout out their lair.

Since the Expeditious Messenger is a construct, it should be able to move underwater without having to breath.

Really cheesy I know, but that's my suggestion. I suppose any other option that uses constructs, undead, or minions would work.

[akma]

I don't care if he referenced Twinkies. They do not exist in that setting.

You realised I was joking, right?

And since there are not many ways to magically navigate the dungeon, what about a more forcefull way - breaking walls in the way. Or becoming incorporal, or that wall pass spell. What ways will allow the characters to simply walk in a straight line and reach their target? And how could they theoritically do it consistently?

[hamishspence]

You realised I was joking, right?

On the Tolkien Sarcasm page, there's a hilarious theory on Twinkies in LOTR:

Spoiler

Show

Lembas
From postings to rec.arts.books.tolkien by BThompson <williamt-aaaaaaat-lamar-dawt-colostate.edu>, dated 11 April and 18 September 1995.

Has anyone else noticed the apparent similarities between Lembas and Hostess Twinkies? Please consider the following:

1) Both are lightly-baked cakes with creme filling.

2) Both are hermetically-sealed in some type of wrapper (mallorn leaf for lembas and malleable plastic leaf for Twinkies).

3) Both will remain fresh if their wrapping remains unbroken (in fact, Twinkies are reputed to have a shelf-life of several million years either in or out of their wrapping).

Are lembas an early prototype for the modern-day Twinkies? Any and all comments are welcome.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
All golden Twinkies do not glitter,
Not all consumed Twinkies are tossed;
The old that is preserved does not wither,
Their yellow-dyed color is not lost.

In the stomach a fire shall be woken,
A Tums from the bottle shall spring,
Renewed shall be revulsion unbroken,
Hostess cakes again are the thing.

- B. Baggins characterizing an insidious plot by Sauron to poison the denizens of Middle-earth (from "The Council of Elrond", the unpublished tapes).