Maximizing Knowledge Devotion

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I am working on a brains over brawn divine gish. My build will look like this:
Human with 1 Flaw:
Swordsage 2/Cloistered Cleric 2/ Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage 4

Feats
1: Extra Readied Maneuver, Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes
3: Weapon Finesse, Trade Knowledge for Knowledge Devoion
6: Shadow Blade
9: Stand Still

I am looking for ways to make the most of Knowledge Devotion. I will have the collector of stories skill trick and I'm aware that trading away Knowledge removes those skills from my repitoire. Between all of my classes I have every knowledge skill necessary with the exception of Dungeoneering.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there is a spell guidance of the avatar, that gives you a 20 on any check you want, whenever you want. maybe wand it or something.

[Greenish]

I'm aware that trading away Knowledge removes those skills from my repitoire.

So don't trade it away. More specifically, you have 3rd cleric level just planted there in your build when you could easily replace it with Church Inquisitor (C.Div) and then trade the Inquisition domain for Knowledge Devotion.

Or you could spare your feats, go with Strength focus, and use your actual feats to pick up Knowledge Devotion.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

So don't trade it away. More specifically, you have 3rd cleric level just planted there in your build when you could easily replace it with Church Inquisitor (C.Div) and then trade the Inquisition domain for Knowledge Devotion.

Or you could spare your feats, go with Strength focus, and use your actual feats to pick up Knowledge Devotion.

That's a good point, actually. But where does it say that Inquisition can be traded for Knowledge Devotion?

[Ernir]

Divine Insight (SpC 70) is a spell that can be discharged for a huge bonus on a skill check. Like a knowledge check. Requires less preparation (and is from a less dubious source) than Guidance of the Avatar.

That's a good point, actually. But where does it say that Inquisition can be traded for Knowledge Devotion?

Complete Champion page 53.

[Pechvarry]

I am looking for ways to make the most of Knowledge Devotion. I will have the collector of stories skill trick and I'm aware that trading away Knowledge removes those skills from my repitoire. Between all of my classes I have every knowledge skill necessary with the exception of Dungeoneering.

Are you remembering that Knowledge Devotion also lets you choose a single Knowledge skill to always be a class skill? If not, there's your dungeoneering and there's no reason to mess with stuff.

[Thurbane]

This thread has alot of advice on how to pump Knowledge checks.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Are you remembering that Knowledge Devotion also lets you choose a single Knowledge skill to always be a class skill? If not, there's your dungeoneering and there's no reason to mess with stuff.

Oh, that's useful. I'm thinking I need to reread the CC entried carefully.

This thread has alot of advice on how to pump Knowledge checks.

Thanks for this.

[Swooper]

Must it be a human? Because if you can be a gnome instead, you have access to Trivial Knowledge.

[Thurbane]

Must it be a human? Because if you can be a gnome instead, you have access to Trivial Knowledge.

You could also blow 3 levels on Stoneblessed to qulaify for the feat, but not great in a Gish build...

[Swooper]

You could also blow 3 levels on Stoneblessed to qulaify for the feat, but not great in a Gish build...

Yeah, I'm aware, but I didn't think it'd help much - spending three levels just to qualify for a nonessential feat is probably not a good idea in most cases

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Must it be a human? Because if you can be a gnome instead, you have access to Trivial Knowledge.

The bonus skill/feat is nice but I suppose the Trivial Knowledge might make up for those lost skill points by generally making my rolls better.

Is there a gnome variant that gets a bonus feat?

[Swooper]

Not that I'm aware of - only humans and strongheart halflings get that to my knowledge.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Not that I'm aware of - only humans and strongheart halflings get that to my knowledge.

I knew there was some form of little people that got an extra feat. It shouldn't be too much of a problem anyway.

[Tytalus]

Must it be a human? Because if you can be a gnome instead, you have access to Trivial Knowledge.

For those too lazy to calculate it: this feat improves the result of knowledge checks by 3.325 on average.

Addendum: As such, it's worth 33.25 skill points (assuming 10 knowledges as per PHB) or 19.95 skill points with respect to knowledge devotion alone.

[faceroll]

There's a spell in CChamp that gives you +10 to knowledge checks for minutes or 10min/level if you worship a deity of knowledge. Pretty solid.

[Abbalah]

Lore of the Gods is an excellent go-to, especially if your deity of choice grants the Knowledge domain.

level 2 cleric spell, standard action to cast, lasts 10 min/level.

Grants a +5 insight on Knowledge checks for the duration, increasing to +10 insight if your god grants the knowledge domain (irrespective of whether or not you actually chose the domain).

Moreover, you can reduce the remaining duration by 1 minute to either make an untrained knowledge check or retry a failed knowledge check, with the insight bonus continuing to apply in both cases.

Assuming your DM is ruling that collector of stories applies to Knowledge Devotion (I think there's some dispute about this, RAW?) and your god grants the Knowledge domain, you're looking at INT+10 insight+5 competence+2 circumstance (from skill tools)+ranks, which if you've got even a +4 INT mod and 8 ranks puts you at 29 before you even roll the dice; maximum relevant skill check is 36 for a +5 bonus, so at that point you'd only need to be worried about rolling a 7+.

Even better if your DM lets you use Lore to reroll the check.

[Curmudgeon]

Here are a few notes for you.

If you choose Inquisition as a regular domain you can keep Knowledge for all Knowledges as class skills, and trade Inquisition for Knowledge Devotion. If you're not playing in Forgotten Realms you don't need to worship a god, but the following deities grant Inquisition:

• Core Deities: Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, Wee Jas.
• Forgotten Realms Deities: Berronar Truesilver, Clangeddin Silverbeard, Cyrrollalee.
• Other Deities: Allitur, Pholtus, Rao.

Note that Collector of Stories has the usual skill trick limit of one use per encounter. If you're up against a mixed party you'll only get the boost to one type of creature.

If combat starts before you make your check(s), you won't be allowed to "take 10" on them ─ excepting some special ability like Skill Mastery. A 1-level dip into Exemplar (Complete Adventurer), with your INT boosted to 20 (temporarily at least) at level-up, will allow you to master the 6 Knowledge skills related to creature types.

You really want to get to 3rd level Cleric spellcasting. (Your build only gets there at level 7 with RKV 2.) The 2nd level Cleric spell Guidance of the Avatar grants a +20 competence bonus on your next skill check within 1 minute. If you see your opponents before combat begins (a good reason to maximize Spot) you'll be able to boost your Knowledge checks considerably. Since the rules state you can make Knowledge Devotion checks, you're not required to do so at any particular time, giving you the flexibility to buff yourself first (if time permits).

[Corwin_of_Amber]

So, I'm pretty much forced into worshipping Wee Jas for RKV. According to Comp Div she does not offer either Knowledge or Inquisition. I don't think it's going to be a very large problem since my DM is allowing me to take the Illusion domain, but it would still not grant me +10 for Lore of the Gods.

Something I should probobly note: I'm using the spontaneous divine caster variant so I can cast multiple non-cleric domain spells per day and I can take advantage of those situational spells from Knowledge.

One last thing, does anyone know of any Gnome races that give + to Dex and Wis without a huge penalty to Cha like Svirfneblin?

[Thurbane]

Master Player Race List says there's a couple that give +2 DEX -2 STR, but that's about it. You could throw Unseelie Fey template (Dragon Compendium) on a Gnome race to modify the stats by +2 DEX +2 CHA -2 STR -2 CON...although that might make them not count as a Gnome any more.

[Coidzor]

So, I'm pretty much forced into worshipping Wee Jas for RKV. According to Comp Div she does not offer either Knowledge or Inquisition. I don't think it's going to be a very large problem since my DM is allowing me to take the Illusion domain, but it would still not grant me +10 for Lore of the Gods.

Doesn't matter if the deity offers Knowledge as a domain (and as a deity of magic she should anyway), Cloistered Cleric gives it to you anyway. Inquisition Domain is usually accessed via the PrC Church Inquisitor anyway, and PrCs that grant domains don't require that the deity offers them to vanilla clerics, so the only problem there is if your DM doesn't allow the LN church of Wee Jas to have an appropriate organization to be a member of or something.

Don't whisper gnomes buff both Wisdom and Dex?

[Ernir]

Don't whisper gnomes buff both Wisdom and Dex?

No, -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha.

[Curmudgeon]

So, I'm pretty much forced into worshipping Wee Jas for RKV. According to Comp Div she does not offer either Knowledge or Inquisition.

As Coidzor already pointed out, all Cloistered Clerics get Knowledge. Also, the Complete Divine domain list is incomplete; they only list 2 deities in the entire D&D multiverse as having Inquisition. The official Living Greyhawk deities list includes Inquisition in Wee Jas's portfolio. Go to Wizards' Living Greyhawk main page and download Living Greyhawk Deities v.2.0 from the "Campaign Documents" section. You'll find Wee Jas on page 186.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

As Coidzor already pointed out, all Cloistered Clerics get Knowledge. Also, the Complete Divine domain list is incomplete; they only list 2 deities in the entire D&D multiverse as having Inquisition. The official Living Greyhawk deities list includes Inquisition in Wee Jas's portfolio. Go to Wizards' Living Greyhawk main page and download Living Greyhawk Deities v.2.0 from the "Campaign Documents" section. You'll find Wee Jas on page 186.

I was just making the point that I get elss of a boost to Lore of the Gods. Thank you for the refence material, I always like to avoid having to wave away certain rules in the interest of charater design, even though my current DM doesn't care at all.