Casting Underwater

[Hanuman]

What are the limitations here? What's to stop a warforged from casting within a wall of water?

[akma]

From my memory, only fire spells are limited, and to cast a fire spell underwater you must pass a DC 20 spellcraft check.

[Hanuman]

Solid, thanks!

[FelixG]

I think anything with a Verbal Component would be disrupted as well, you cant exactly speak in a firm loud voice those arcane words if you are going gurgle gurgle gurgle

Verbal (V)

A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.

[Heliomance]

Doesn't stop a Warforged. They presumably don't speak by passing air through vocal cords.

[Kaww]

I think anything with a Verbal Component would be disrupted as well, you cant exactly speak in a firm loud voice those arcane words if you are going gurgle gurgle gurgle

Technically sound travels through water just as well (a bit better), but I agree that spells with verbal components are impeded... Gurgle sound is produced by air if you have no air in your lungs no gurgleing, just normal sound traveling quite a bit faster.
EDIT: Darn Swordsages...

[Hanuman]

Doesn't stop a Warforged. They presumably don't speak by passing air through vocal cords.

I am an exiled modron with 2 constructs I built.

But right now I'm more interested in casting wall of sand as it would allow the constructs to attack from inside the wall with near impunity of repercussion, I could also hide inside the wall and continue casting, though nothing that requires line of sight, the plan would basically be to cast wall of sand up with the constructs inside of it, making a "wall of allies", then casting cloudkill in front of that, and then dancing chains which if they cant crawl through the sand they can go around or on top of it at NI speed, 2 groups of 4 of them grapple some guys and start dragging them into the cloudkill and then 2 of them from each group split off to grab a 3rd and so on, once an opponent is dead they keep lashing out and pulling more enemies to their death. Once the wall fades the constructs charge forward and I cast a wall of limbs behind the enemies and then another cloud the following round.

VERY nasty combo.

Oh, and did I mention ALL of these spells also get a free 10' radius of sickening for as long as they stay within the burst radius and the spell persists they are sickened (no save) which gives them not only a -2 to saves vs the cloudkill but I believe it also gives a -2 to grapple? Yes?

[AstralFire]

...Took me a while to figure out you said 'exiled modron' and not 'exiled moron.'

[Hanuman]

...Took me a while to figure out you said 'exiled modron' and not 'exiled moron.'

But, I like my constructs

[Whammydill]

I recall reading somewhere about the verbal component not being impeded by water. You are actually saying the words the way you need to say them, just that once it enters the water medium it changes the way it sounds after the fact, so it has no effect on the invocation.... wish I could remember where I read that.

[Heliomance]

I am an exiled modron with 2 constructs I built.

But right now I'm more interested in casting wall of sand as it would allow the constructs to attack from inside the wall with near impunity of repercussion, I could also hide inside the wall and continue casting, though nothing that requires line of sight, the plan would basically be to cast wall of sand up with the constructs inside of it, making a "wall of allies", then casting cloudkill in front of that, and then dancing chains which if they cant crawl through the sand they can go around or on top of it at NI speed, 2 groups of 4 of them grapple some guys and start dragging them into the cloudkill and then 2 of them from each group split off to grab a 3rd and so on, once an opponent is dead they keep lashing out and pulling more enemies to their death. Once the wall fades the constructs charge forward and I cast a wall of limbs behind the enemies and then another cloud the following round.

VERY nasty combo.

Oh, and did I mention ALL of these spells also get a free 10' radius of sickening for as long as they stay within the burst radius and the spell persists they are sickened (no save) which gives them not only a -2 to saves vs the cloudkill but I believe it also gives a -2 to grapple? Yes?

Pretty much, yeah. That's wha we call a well-optimised build using good tactics. Much like Tucker's kobolds, to be honest. Good tactics can raise the CR of an encounter like nothing else.

[TurtleKing]

For a second there I thought the title was Casting Underwear. Then I saw the t.

[AstralFire]

I recall reading somewhere about the verbal component not being impeded by water. You are actually saying the words the way you need to say them, just that once it enters the water medium it changes the way it sounds after the fact, so it has no effect on the invocation.... wish I could remember where I read that.

That's inconsistent with how some silence effects work, isn't it?

[Hanuman]

That's inconsistent with how some silence effects work, isn't it?

When you throw metamagic in, it doesn't have to make sense.

Do silent power words work?

[Whammydill]

That's inconsistent with how some silence effects work, isn't it?

I guess, in a way. Though underwater you are still making the sounds they just get ruined. When silenced you aren't even generating the sounds....hard to say. I don't even remember if it was official material I read that in.

[Cuaqchi]

If I remember correctly Stormwrack had a list of effects for spell types when underwater. Fire and Gases were restricted; Cold got a funky byproduct; and Sonic and Electricity got some interesting benefits.

There was also a feat in that book where fire spells didn't suffer quite as badly because they became heat based, and became steam attacks.

[AstralFire]

Of course, fire that isn't oxygen based works perfectly fine underwater...

[Marnath]

I thought the rule was you had trouble/couldn't use verbal components under water unless you breathed water? Obviously someone who doesn't breathe at all would also be exempt.

[ericgrau]

The only rules I found was this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness...derwaterCombat

If you breathe water it's reasonable that you can also speak. If you speak otherwise, you must exhale a great deal. How long you can hold your breath after casting as an air breather, I dunno. Fortunately you can hold your breath a long time by RAW and there are a dozen magical ways around it.

[AstralFire]

Hey...

Um.

Shouldn't water impede somatic motions moreso than a chain shirt or padded armor?

[Nero24200]

I would say the verbal components wouldn't work since you're underwater. This has nothing to do with sound travelling through water (since sound can travel through water quite easily), it's more to do with the fact that water would rush into your mouth every time you open it. it's the flooding of your insides that would cause the disruption.

Depending on how picky your DM is they could be justified in stopping spells with somatic components as well (or providing spell failure) since movement underwater would be alot slower. If metal armour is enough to hamper a spell caster's movements then being underwater should be much worse.

[randomhero00]

I believe sonic and lightning in water are automatically made bigger area of effects and possibly empowered. But I forget.

[ericgrau]

I would say the verbal components wouldn't work since you're underwater. This has nothing to do with sound travelling through water (since sound can travel through water quite easily), it's more to do with the fact that water would rush into your mouth every time you open it. it's the flooding of your insides that would cause the disruption.

I don't think you've tried talking underwater before. It's not hard. The air pressure keeps you from swallowing water, but the downside is you lose a bit of air.

I could see large sweeping motions being impeded underwater but not short or slow ones, even intricate ones. It could be an okay house rule to impose a spell failure chance, but it isn't necessarily a problem.

[Otodetu]

I don't think you've tried talking underwater before. It's not hard. The air pressure keeps you from swallowing water, but the downside is you lose a bit of air.

I could see large sweeping motions being impeded underwater but not short or slow ones, even intricate ones. It could be an okay house rule to impose a spell failure chance, but it isn't necessarily a problem.

This. It is not hard to talk underwater, and you are not silenced, but I rule that you basically use up your air supply, so that one spell better be getting you out of trouble.

[Nero24200]

I could see large sweeping motions being impeded underwater but not short or slow ones, even intricate ones. It could be an okay house rule to impose a spell failure chance, but it isn't necessarily a problem.

I would say the motions should still impede spells. Wearing a little leather hinders arcane casters, so slower motions should be far worse.

[Otodetu]

I would say the motions should still impede spells. Wearing a little leather hinders arcane casters, so slower motions should be far worse.

I do not agree, look at aquatic spell-casters; they have no issues.

[Marnath]

I do not agree, look at aquatic spell-casters; they have no issues.

Also, there is a difference between being slowed down and not being able to perform the movement at all due to restricted range of motion in armor.

[Hanuman]

Hey...

Um.

Shouldn't water impede somatic motions moreso than a chain shirt or padded armor?

Shouldn't a monstrous race having 3 fingers impede somatic components more than water? It's all relative. Armor is just a balance mechanic to make casters have to sacrifice to not be glass cannons. See mage armor and the shield spell.

[Nero24200]

Also, there is a difference between being slowed down and not being able to perform the movement at all due to restricted range of motion in armor.

Wearing padding shouldn't restrict movement that much. I've seen fully kitted-out hocky goalies moves alot faster and more gracefully whilst in goals than while swimming. I've even worn said padding and still found most movements (such as running) easier than trying to "run" in a pool where my feet can comfortably touch the bottem.

Yet in D'n'D padded armour (which would be significantly less than hocky padding) isenough to cause spell failure. Therfore, anything which can impede movement to the same extent (such as water) should also cause spell failure. How much spell failure is debatable, but there should still be spell failure none the less.

Though I agree that an aquatic race or other creature that can move more freely in water should find spellcasting underwater far less problematic (if at all).

[tyckspoon]

Yet in D'n'D padded armour (which would be significantly less than hocky padding) isenough to cause spell failure. Therfore, anything which can impede movement to the same extent (such as water) should also cause spell failure. How much spell failure is debatable, but there should still be spell failure none the less.

So, say.. standard ornate wizardly robes, which may well be thicker and more obstructive than padded armor, but as 'clothing' still offer neither an AC bonus nor a spell failure chance? Should there be ASF for looking like a wizard? I mean, I agree a wizard unfamiliar with casting underwater would be impeded, but you're not going to get anywhere trying to apply sense to the concept of Arcane Spell Failure. I'd apply it as a Spellcraft and/or Concentration check; those already have uses as general-case "casting in a difficult situation/how do I use magic in this situation" mechanics.