[GURPS 4th Edition] How the heck do you get grazing shots?

[Ragitsu]

A typical 5.56mm NATO assault rifle does 5d damage - 5 minimum, 17.5 average, and 30 maximum.

A typical 9mm NATO handgun does 2d+2 damage - 4 minimum, 9 average, and 14 maximum.

(Note that I have not factored in things such as DR or 1/2D+ range).

In either case, it is seemingly impossible to get a "graze", because an average human has 10 HP, and 4/5 damage is definitely significant (the latter is a Major Wound, which adds further danger!).

I would normally just say the cinematic rule of "Flesh Wounds" handles this well, but there are real life instances of someone getting winged for no/1 damage (in GURPS terms, that is).

Any suggestions on a practical-yet-realistic solution?

[Ogremindes]

I'm not familiar with GURPS, but does a graze even warrant HP loss? Maybe missing by 1 is a graze.

[Tael]

Indeed, grazing shots are misses.
In our games,we play that PC's that get hit exactly take 1 damage instead, cos they're special.

[DukeofDellot]

If I remember a Kromm quote (I won't be able to link it... but...)

Grazing hits are represented by attacks that don't wound. Such as a "failed punch" at point blank range when you're already grappling the guy or a "dodged bullet" even though we all know you can't actually do that in the real world.

[Tael]

Dodging bullets is not actually dodging bullets though, it's diving for cover or moving erratically to throw off someone's aim.

[Ragitsu]

It still seems odd that a 5.56mm bullet either does a minimum of 0 or 5 damage to the typical human, and 1-4 is an impossibility "as is".

[Tael]

How? A bullet is really freaking fast. If it hits you at all, it's going to do serious damage. I would be more surprised if it could do 2 damage, as i can't imagine a bullet doing that little without barely grazing you.

[VirOath]

You need to understand what a graze is, and how bullets do damage.

The stopping power of the bullet is the trauma it causes to flesh and the shock that trauma can cause. It's not just wound tract, it's the damage the transfer of kinetic energy causes to the surrounding tissue, the shock to it. This is why a body shot is so deadly, it doesn't just have plenty of vitals it could hit, it can do plenty of trauma and damage to them as well just by passing by.

It's not about the size of the force used, as swinging a baseball bat has more kinetic force than most bullets, it's the way it concentrates all that force into a very localized area that makes it so dangerous. This is what allows bullet resistant materials to work, as they grab and spread that force over a wider area.

Now there is plenty more to it, but that's the basics.

A graze is a bullet that doesn't hit well enough to be able to transfer it's energy into the target, rather it just tears what little it grabbed. A bullet really is hit or miss, all or nothing.

[Ragitsu]

You need to understand what a graze is, and how bullets do damage.

The stopping power of the bullet is the trauma it causes to flesh and the shock that trauma can cause. It's not just wound tract, it's the damage the transfer of kinetic energy causes to the surrounding tissue, the shock to it. This is why a body shot is so deadly, it doesn't just have plenty of vitals it could hit, it can do plenty of trauma and damage to them as well just by passing by.

It's not about the size of the force used, as swinging a baseball bat has more kinetic force than most bullets, it's the way it concentrates all that force into a very localized area that makes it so dangerous. This is what allows bullet resistant materials to work, as they grab and spread that force over a wider area.

Now there is plenty more to it, but that's the basics.

A graze is a bullet that doesn't hit well enough to be able to transfer it's energy into the target, rather it just tears what little it grabbed. A bullet really is hit or miss, all or nothing.

Except that at 1/2D+ range, this gets blown out of the water, as bullets start doing 1-4 damage "grazes" (which is less of a graze and more of an actual wound).

Furthermore, people have been grazed by bullets, in our reality, without suffering even what GURPS calls a 1 HP injury. Painful, yes, but not within the standard level of resolution in regards to tracking damage.

I am not seeing a neat and happy median that will satisfy people that want zero to 1 HP "grazes" within 1/2D range.

[Knaight]

Actual grazes don't warrant a 10% health loss by any stretch of the imagination. 0 HP grazes are best simulated by near misses.

[Ragitsu]

Actual grazes don't warrant a 10% health loss by any stretch of the imagination. 0 HP grazes are best simulated by near misses.

So far, this is looking like the best (that's not saying much) solution .

[VirOath]

Except that at 1/2D+ range, this gets blown out of the water, as bullets start doing 1-4 damage "grazes" (which is less of a graze and more of an actual wound).

Furthermore, people have been grazed by bullets, in our reality, without suffering even what GURPS calls a 1 HP injury. Painful, yes, but not within the standard level of resolution in regards to tracking damage.

I am not seeing a neat and happy median that will satisfy people that want zero to 1 HP "grazes" within 1/2D range.

And at those ranges, you are using it beyond the effective range, bullet drop and wind resistance come into heavy effect. The latter being important here, as you are draining the kinetic energy from the bullet as it moves through the air. The high energy transfer rate that makes them so deadly now works against them, as they bleed off the one thing that they have going for them.

Less force means less penetration of the flesh, means less energy to transfer to the wound, means less trauma and less damage. A .45 will go through a person when about 10-20 feet away, will put a rabbit hole in them at near point blank, and will stick inside at the outer reaches of it's range.

If you want to further hamper guns at "out of range" ranges, add a -2 to damage as well, or roll % vs concealment ala DnD.

Because at that range, a hit is still a hit, it still impacts in but "Only a Flesh Wound" comes into play there. A graze is still no worse than a painful papercut, a brush against the skin.

Edit: And I'm realizing it may be a failure of the game for using the wrong words for this, if they call any hit beyond effective range a 'graze'

[Ragitsu]

And at those ranges, you are using it beyond the effective range, bullet drop and wind resistance come into heavy effect. The latter being important here, as you are draining the kinetic energy from the bullet as it moves through the air. The high energy transfer rate that makes them so deadly now works against them, as they bleed off the one thing that they have going for them.

Less force means less penetration of the flesh, means less energy to transfer to the wound, means less trauma and less damage. A .45 will go through a person when about 10-20 feet away, will put a rabbit hole in them at near point blank, and will stick inside at the outer reaches of it's range.

If you want to further hamper guns at "out of range" ranges, add a -2 to damage as well, or roll % vs concealment ala DnD.

Because at that range, a hit is still a hit, it still impacts in but "Only a Flesh Wound" comes into play there. A graze is still no worse than a painful papercut, a brush against the skin.

Edit: And I'm realizing it may be a failure of the game for using the wrong words for this, if they call any hit beyond effective range a 'graze'

What do you think of the following rule for a "graze"? ->

A character hit by a grazing projectile must make a (HT? Will?) roll. Success indicates a surface injury, and no pain. Failure indicates a surface injury, and Moderate Pain lasting for minutes equal to the Margin of Failure. Those with High Pain Threshold are exempt from rolling.

[Ragitsu]

You there?

[fusilier]

Indeed, grazing shots are misses.
In our games,we play that PC's that get hit exactly take 1 damage instead, cos they're special.

What about turning that upside-down?

Instead of grazes occurring when the shooter misses by one point, how about when the target misses his/her/its dodge by one point (or passes it exactly)? In 3rd edition (where there was no automatic +3 to dodging), this would make grazes pretty rare. However, they would be more common in 4th, perhaps too common.

I think a 1-HP wound would be acceptable under such circumstances. There was an alternative wound system in 3rd edition, (which would work in 4th but I have no idea if it's actually printed in 4th's material), where each wound was recorded individually. Small 1-HP wounds would be healed by first aid. So a series of grazes wouldn't result in a character that needs major medical attention.

If you really want to simulate low amounts of damage, you can use a rule that is triggered off the minimum damage being rolled. So if on 5d6 you roll a "5", then you could roll 1d6 for the actual damage 1-5 (treat a 6 as a 5). However, 5d6 will have a normal distribution so the likelihood of rolling something as low as 5 is very, very low, meaning that it's really unlikely that you would ever have an opportunity to implement such a rule.

[warmachine]

This'll probably be answered as an optional rule in GURPS: Tactical Shooting when it comes out.

[kyoryu]

This is, honestly, one of the problems with GURPS, and has been for years.

It gets worse at higher tech levels, where adding armor into the equation turns damage rolls into a pretty binary result - either you're totally unaffected by the shot, or you're reduced to a red smear.

[Ragitsu]

This is, honestly, one of the problems with GURPS, and has been for years.

It gets worse at higher tech levels, where adding armor into the equation turns damage rolls into a pretty binary result - either you're totally unaffected by the shot, or you're reduced to a red smear.

As I said, the cinematic rule of Flesh Wounds helps, but, of course, being cinematic makes it off limits in "reality", and means that there is currently very little recourse for players/GMs seeking to emulate realistic grazes in their games.