[3.P] 3rd level spells only?

[Rixx]

One of the major benefits of E6 as a balancing mechanism is limiting casters to 3rd level spells - after that level, you start to get the really crazy stuff (standard action teleportation over 400 feet, save or die, and what have you).

Has anyone tried playing a game that has normal progression every other way, but limits spellcasting to 3rd level? Under this system, spellcasters would still get higher level spell slots, but would only be able to use them to prepare lower level spells (or metamagic'd versions of their level 1 - 3 spells). Spontaneous casters can continue to learn new spells of their smaller spell levels. Caster level would still keep progressing.

I believe this would be a major factor in converting spellcasters to a linear rather than exponential power curve - a high level wizard can throw a quickened, empowered, intensified (+5 dice of damage, from Pathfinder APG) fireball, and then a normal empowered, intensified fireball for (30d6 * 1.5) damage (average of 158 HP of damage, if both saves fail!), which is still rather impressive, but not world-shattering. A mundane character wouldn't take that hit easily, but still has a chance of shrugging it off and continuing to contribute to the fight.

I'd imagine using different monsters would have to be the name of the game - a lot of monsters require higher level magic to fight (especially if they have high level magic themselves). After a certain point, the DM would probably have to use NPCs or monsters with class levels or templates to provide appropriate challenge.

Has anyone ever played under a similar system such as this? What were the results?

[Psyren]

My thoughts:

1) You'd need some provision for the utility spells above 3 - resurrection, teleportation, true seeing, break enchantment etc.

2) The casters are forced into metamagic feats to stay effective, which limits their selection otherwise.

3) How would this apply to nonstandard casting classes - e.g. Binders and Warlocks?

[HunterOfJello]

I've seen some where they limit spells to 5th level or so and make the progression to those spells take twice as long as normal. That usually works better than limiting spells all the way down to 3rd.

E6 works out because the melee classes are at level 6 also, but once the spell casters are only gaining level 3 spells at character level 20, then much larger discrepancies will end up popping up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For my own low-magic campaigns I do this:

1. The only casting classes are the adept and the magewright (an npc class in the eberron campaign setting)
2. paladins and rangers still exist, but must choose one of the non-spellcasting variants
3. the prestige versions of bard and paladin are allowed
4. finally, if the spells required for the crafting of a magic item are not on the spell list of one of the above classes, that magic item is not available.

[noiadodh]

what tier wizards would be if they had adept spell progression - 5th level spells at level 16? tier 3? 4?

[Runestar]

It should theoretically still be playable, since I do find certain lower lv spells continue to remain viable even at higher lvs. This assumes you allow heighten spell (so save DCs continue to scale).

[Coidzor]

noiadodh: Well, up until after level 10, Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Rangers are considered to be basically tier 1 due to being wizards with a 1 level delay, ranger spells, and skills. So if they got their spells at the same time and didn't get new spell levels after they got their 5th level spells at 9th level but just got more spell slots and spells known, they'd be tier 1 until they stopped getting new spells and then drop down to, probably tier 3, since they have the intelligence synergy and other goodies like stupid familiar tricks (which become less stupid due to having more leeway in terms of grabbing things to progress their one fully-scaling class feature) ...I believe it might also encourage gishing...

So, probably tier 3 considering they have a better spell list than adepts and can access pretty much all of the nice divine spells as well due to domain wizard, and that adepts are tier 4 themselves.

OP: Well, you're either giving heighten spell to full casters as a class feature now or forcing them to pay a feat tax to even use their class features at level 7+ when only wizards get any kind of compensation for their metamagic feat burdens. So basically would choke the versatility out of casters on two fronts and feats have always been tight.

Sorcerers would... be both more and less viable, their lack of spells known is made up for by having less spells to choose from so they can go ahead and get pretty much all of the good 1st-3rd level ones, but they're screwed on the meta-magic end of things due to being spontaneous casters. Same with Favored Souls and Spirit Shamans, I believe.

Also, IIRC, 4th level spells are not actually banned under E6, but they require more effort to get due to having to use one's feats to access them. So the 4th level spells themselves are not terribly disruptive to the game's balance in and of themselves.

[Hawk7915]

OP: Well, you're either giving heighten spell to full casters as a class feature now or forcing them to pay a feat tax to even use their class features at level 7+ when only wizards get any kind of compensation for their metamagic feat burdens. So basically would choke the versatility out of casters on two fronts and feats have always been tight.

Sorcerers would... be both more and less viable, their lack of spells known is made up for by having less spells to choose from so they can go ahead and get pretty much all of the good 1st-3rd level ones, but they're screwed on the meta-magic end of things due to being spontaneous casters. Same with Favored Souls and Spirit Shamans, I believe.

Also, IIRC, 4th level spells are not actually banned under E6, but they require more effort to get due to having to use one's feats to access them. So the 4th level spells themselves are not terribly disruptive to the game's balance in and of themselves.

A feat tax like...every other class in the game, ever? Rogues and Barbarians need to take all sorts of feats to be even remotely effective at any combat style, and Fighters are the only class that gets a compensation for that (in traditional 3.5; Pathfinder is a bit different).

Banning most 4th levels also does make sense, even in Pathfinder, because it really is the level where crazy stuff like Polymorph, Divine Power, Black Tentacles, Enervation, Lesser Geas, Improved Invisibility, and many others allow spellcasters to just walk away from non-casters.

I think it would shove all full-casters down two tiers; full casters with set spell-lists (like the Beguiler) probably get hit harder as levels go on. So if your group likes the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage that's a consideration; they quickly become unplayable past level six. Also as mentioned, I'd remove the silly "spontaneous casters can't use metamagic as well" rule since Sorcerers and Favored Souls tend to be worse than Wizards and Clerics in the first place. But if you're looking to make full-casters Tier 3-4, this fix might work.

[Coidzor]

A feat tax like...every other class in the game, ever? Rogues and Barbarians need to take all sorts of feats to be even remotely effective at any combat style, and Fighters are the only class that gets a compensation for that (in traditional 3.5; Pathfinder is a bit different).

You can still sneak attack without feats, you can still get your full iterative attacks without feats. This is requiring a feat to be taken to use much more than half of a class feature at all.

It's different, and as has been established in many threads, there is a substantial segment of the population who dislike feat taxes and disagree with the design philosophy that espouses them. Furthermore, feat taxes and feat chains are not always the same thing.

Banning most 4th levels also does make sense, even in Pathfinder, because it really is the level where crazy stuff like Polymorph, Divine Power, Black Tentacles, Enervation, Lesser Geas, Improved Invisibility, and many others allow spellcasters to just walk away from non-casters.

4th level spells are significantly less crazy as the capstone of caster power than as the middle of the road and the start of where things get interesting for casters. If the most powerful thing a cleric can do is give himself full BAB (which is overvalued by the designers anyway) at level 20, that's just giving himself a single extra attack on a full attack which means he isn't casting anything other than a swift action spell that turn anyway.

If a wizard turns himself and his familiar into hydras that have to move in tandem in order for both to stay hydras, this is significantly less impressive at level 20 when this is the only really viable thing they can do against level appropriate foes (and even then... probably not viable).

So unless the things that are thrown at the party are significantly tuned down, there's not that much to shout about with 4th level spells even when their caster level dependent effects are maxed out at level 20.