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    PaladinGuy

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    Default [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    A Brief Introduction:

    My good friend Dante aka Cadian 9th kept telling me that Barbarian was a little bit "meh". So I decided to fix that, not by telling him to shut-up, but by fixing the Barbarian class. My goal with this is move it up to tier 3, that's roughly inline with the Crusader, Swordsage, my other three homebrews (see sig), the Warblade, the Bard, the Facotum etc.


    The Barbarian




    CHARGE!!!! KILL 'EM, KILL 'EM ALL!!!

    Sometimes it's best to be destructive, do be insane, to go crazy. The best place for this is in a fight. The adrenalin pumping through your veins and the rage building up inside you, makes you a fight harder and better than you otherwise would. The Barbarian is this taken to the extreme. He's fast, he's strong, and he's very angry.

    The Barbarian

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Rage 1/day, Frightening Muscles, Heave, Fast Movement

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |DR1/-, Metabolic Boost 1, Uncanny Dodge, Rampage, Mad Skillz

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Rage 2/day, Feat: Endurance, Trapkiller

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |DR2/-, Reckless Assault, Oversized Weapons, Pounce

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Rage 3/day, Metabolic Boost 2, Adrenalin Surge, Improved Uncanny Dodge

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |DR3/-, Frightful Presence, Battle Insanity, Overpowering Bullrush

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Rage 4/day, Massive Grappling

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |DR4/-, Metabolic Boost 3

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Rage 5/day, Improved Adrenalin Surge, Irresistible Trip

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |DR5/-, Frantic Aggression

    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Rage 6/day, Metabolic Boost 4, Greater Rage

    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |DR6/-, Improved Frightful Presence

    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Rage 7/day

    14th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |DR7/-, Metabolic Boost 5, Indomitable Will

    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Rage 8/day

    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |DR8/-, Improved Battle Insanity

    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Rage 9/day, Metabolic Boost 6, Tireless Rage

    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |DR9/-, Furious Distraction

    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Rage 10/day

    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |DR10/-, Metabolic Boost 7, Mighty Rage, Vortex of Distraction[/table]

    Class Skills:

    Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Swim (Str).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with simple and martial weapons, light and medium armours and shields, except tower shields.

    Rage: At first level, as many times per day as indicated on the table, a barbarian may enter a fit of rage. He temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are; see Temporary Hit Points, page 146.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter. He may only enter a rage once per encounter.

    Frightening Muscles (Ex): At first level, a barbarian may add a bonus equal to his strength modifier to intimidate checks.

    Heave (Ex): At first level, a barbarian gains a bonus to Strength checks equal to 1/2 of his class level. This only applies to ability checks, not skill checks or attacks.

    Fast Movement (Ex): At first level, a barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armour worn.

    Damage Reduction (Ex): At second level, a barbarian gains DR/- equal to the amount indicated in the table.

    Metabolic Boost (Ex): At second level, a barbarian gains fast healing while raging equal to the amount indicated on the table.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex):At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Rampage (Ex): At 2nd level, during a rage, a barbarian gains a bonus to damage equal to half his class level. This bonus also applies to damage dealt in sunder attempts.

    Mad Skillz (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains a bonus equal to half his class level to survival and intimidate skill checks.

    Endurance (Ex): At 3rd level, a barbarian gains the feat Endurance (PHB).

    Trapkiller (Ex): At 3rd level, a barbarian gains trapfinding; see the rogue class feature, (PHB 50), except that he can use Survival instead of Search to locate traps. However, he takes a -5 penalty on such checks because of his comparative unfamiliarity with the mechanisms and triggers involved.

    Once a barbarian finds a mechanical trap, he can attempt to disarm it by making an attack roll. He succeeds if the result exceeds the Disable Device DC of that trap. Only traps with moving mechanisms or gears (such as shifting floor panels, dropping portcullis gates, or arrow traps) can be disarmed in this manner; simple pitfalls and most magic traps have no mechanism to be so disrupted. He must be able to reach the trap with a melee attack to make a disarm attempt. If he fails to disarm the trap, he automatically springs it.

    Reckless Assault: (Ex) Starting at 4th level, penalties to a barbarian's attack rolls due to power attack may be exchanged for an equal penalty to his AC.

    Oversized Weapons: (Ex) At 4th level, a barbarian can wield weapons one size category larger than normal without penalty.

    Pounce (Ex): At 4th level, when a barbarian makes a charge, instead of making a single attack, he can make a full attack.

    Adrenalin Surge (Ex): At 5th level, after a Barbarian drops an opponent he gains temporary hit points equal his class level. These temporary hit points last for one minute. Temporary hit points stack with each other, but not other forms of temporary hit points.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

    Frightful Presence (Ex): At 6th level, while a barbarian is raging and after an attack or charge, all of his opponents within 30ft of him are shaken for 1d6 + his Strength or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher) rounds, unless they make a will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Strength or Charisma Mod, whichever is larger) If they succeed on the save, they’re immune to this ability for 24 hours.

    Battle Insanity (Ex): At 6th level, while a barbarian is raging as a standard action, he may prematurely end his rage to instantly remove a condition of effect currently affecting him. The effect or condition must have a duration greater than one round.

    Overpowering Bull Rush (Ex): At 6th level, a barbarian is treated as being one size category larger where it would benefit him, for the purposes of attempting to bull rush an opponent.

    Massive Grappling (Ex): At 7th level, a barbarian is treated as being one size category larger where it would benefit him for the purposes of grappling.

    Improved Adrenalin Surge (Ex): At 9th level, any time the Barbarian scores a critical hit, he gains temporary hit points equal to his class level. When he drops someone, he gains twice his class level in temporary hp. These temporary hit points are treated exactly the same as the temporary hit points generated by Adrenalin Surge.

    Irresistible Trip (Ex): At 9th level, a barbarian is treated as one size category larger, where it would benefit him for the purposes of tripping.

    Frantic Aggression (Ex): At 10th level, while raging a barbarian gains one extra attack at his highest base attack bonus as part of a full attack or as part of an attack action.

    Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at –2.

    Improved Frightful Presence (Ex): At 12th level, a barbarian no longer needs to be raging to make use of his frightful presence ability.

    Indomitable Will (Ex): While in a rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage.

    Improved Battle Insanity: At 16th level, when a barbarian uses his Battle Insanity ability, he may continue raging as per normal. However, he may only use this ability once per rage.

    Tireless Rage (Ex): At 17th level, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage.

    Furious Distraction: At 18th level, any opponents within 60ft that can hear or see a barbarian that is raging take a -4 penalty to their attack roles if they are not targeting the barbarian. Any enemy spellcasters must pass a concentration check if they wish to cast spells (DC: 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Strength or Charisma Modifier, whichever is higher.)

    Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +10, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +5. The penalty to AC remains at –2.

    Vortex of Distraction: At 20th level, the DC for the concentration check increases by the spell level of the spell that the spell casters are trying to cast.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    This is open to changes and it is by no means set in stone. I would love feedback on all of the new abilities, and whether I should modify the abilities from the original class.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-12-09 at 06:19 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    It peters out toward the higher levels. No new class features, just progression of old ones and a lot of Improved X which is... not competitive with other high level abilities.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Barbarian doesn't need a 'fix'.
    This could be a power up, but in no way is it a fix. The class as fine as it is.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    What kind of Str checks can Heave be applied to? Combat actions? Skills?
    'cause if it works with skills

    Max Intimidate + 1/2 level (Mad Skillz) + 1/2 level (Heave) + Str (Frightening Muscles)

    Make Pounce later, a barbarian doesn't full attack 'til level 6. Leaving it at 1 makes it the Most Awesome Dip Class Ever or MADCE.

    Like the original barbarian... it wimps out high levels still. Add another late level feature and it's set.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    With Frantic Agression, what BAB does the extra attack get? IE, is it done with full BAB, like haste; at full BAB, but all attacks get a penalty, like flurrys; at -5 BAB from your last attack, like full attacks, etc
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Barbarian doesn't need a 'fix'.
    This could be a power up, but in no way is it a fix. The class as fine as it is.
    The problem I've found with the barbarian is that your main class feature, rage, gives quite a small bonus and still gives you some penalties and downsides, and is limited per day.

    +4 strength sounds big, but it's really only a +2 bonus.

    In terms of the Homebrew, well done, for starters, but I agree with the others that barbarian 1 is too good a dip, maybe swap pounce with oversized weapon, so it can be at least a few level dip. I really like Metabolic Boost and Reckless Assualt, stops the stupid Shock Trooper "must charge and take -5" thing.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    It peters out toward the higher levels. No new class features, just progression of old ones and a lot of Improved X which is... not competitive with other high level abilities.
    I know, I realised this when I was creating it. I don't really have any appropriate abilities in mind at the moment. Can anyone help me with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Barbarian doesn't need a 'fix'.
    This could be a power up, but in no way is it a fix. The class as fine as it is.
    Thanks for you input. I greatly appreciate this sort of feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orzel View Post
    What kind of Str checks can Heave be applied to? Combat actions? Skills?
    'cause if it works with skills

    Max Intimidate + 1/2 level (Mad Skillz) + 1/2 level (Heave) + Str (Frightening Muscles)

    Make Pounce later, a barbarian doesn't full attack 'til level 6. Leaving it at 1 makes it the Most Awesome Dip Class Ever or MADCE.

    Like the original barbarian... it wimps out high levels still. Add another late level feature and it's set.
    I think the issue with Heave is fixed and I moved Pounce to 4th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForzaFiori View Post
    With Frantic Agression, what BAB does the extra attack get? IE, is it done with full BAB, like haste; at full BAB, but all attacks get a penalty, like flurrys; at -5 BAB from your last attack, like full attacks, etc
    Fixed; I've made it full bab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    The problem I've found with the barbarian is that your main class feature, rage, gives quite a small bonus and still gives you some penalties and downsides, and is limited per day.

    +4 strength sounds big, but it's really only a +2 bonus.

    In terms of the Homebrew, well done, for starters, but I agree with the others that barbarian 1 is too good a dip, maybe swap pounce with oversized weapon, so it can be at least a few level dip. I really like Metabolic Boost and Reckless Assualt, stops the stupid Shock Trooper "must charge and take -5" thing.
    Yeah. Thanks. I don't really want to move oversized weapons to first level though, but I have moved Pounce to 4th.

    Edit: I'm thinking of implementing an ability that kicks in at 18th level:

    Furious Distraction:

    Any opponents within 60ft that can hear or see a barbarian that is raging take a -4 penalty to their attack roles if they are not targeting the barbarian. Any enemy spellcasters must pass a concentration check if they wish to cast spells (DC: 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Strength or Charisma Modifier, whichever is higher.)

    And an improvement on that ability that kicks in at 20th level:

    Vortex of Distraction:

    As per Furious Distraction except the concentration check DC is increased by the spell level that the spellcaster is trying to cast.

    Thanks Cadian, you've given me the ideas to create these new abilities.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-11-28 at 02:21 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Barbarian doesn't need a 'fix'.
    This could be a power up, but in no way is it a fix. The class as fine as it is.
    I do think this is pertinent: Your "Fix" is mostly a power up, which does increase the barbarian's combat utility, but, by some people's definitions of tiers, does not actually change his tier at all.

    That said, it does definitely power up the barbarian quite a bit. My suggestion would be to condense some of that giant wall of class features. A lot of it could be condensed into giving the barbarian a class feature similar to the Powerful Build racial trait for Goliaths in Races of Stone, for example. It's also definitely extremely top heavy, as some have pointed out.

    Reckless Assault might be... sorta bad, I'm not sure. It's not always the case, but a lot of barbarian builds just ignore armor, so reducing AC even further isn't a major penalty.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by DeckOneBell View Post
    I do think this is pertinent: Your "Fix" is mostly a power up, which does increase the barbarian's combat utility, but, by some people's definitions of tiers, does not actually change his tier at all.
    I gave him the ability to find and destroy traps and I gave him some large skill point bonuses. I think it increases his out of combat utility as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeckOneBell View Post
    That said, it does definitely power up the barbarian quite a bit. My suggestion would be to condense some of that giant wall of class features. A lot of it could be condensed into giving the barbarian a class feature similar to the Powerful Build racial trait for Goliaths in Races of Stone, for example. It's also definitely extremely top heavy, as some have pointed out.
    Okay. Personally, I'd rather stagger the entry of these features, which was why I broke them up. In hindsight, I probably could just give them Powerful Build a few levels later... Say, 13th?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeckOneBell View Post
    Reckless Assault might be... sorta bad, I'm not sure. It's not always the case, but a lot of barbarian builds just ignore armor, so reducing AC even further isn't a major penalty.
    That's exactly the idea. He trades his AC for extra damage.

    Also, I'm wondering what we all think of increasing the bonuses that Mighty Rage gives you.

    Also, I've added in two new class features, Furious Distraction and Vortex of Distraction.

    Edit: A bit of an update, I've increased the Str and Con bonuses from Mighty Rage to +10 and the bonus to will saves to +5.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-12-09 at 06:20 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Also, I'm wondering what we all think of increasing the bonuses that Mighty Rage gives you.

    Also, I've added in two new class features, Furious Distraction and Vortex of Distraction.

    Edit: A bit of an update, I've increased the Str and Con bonuses from Mighty Rage to +10 and the bonus to will saves to +5.
    I like the distraction one, that's a unique ability that no other class has, kudos. Gives him a decent ability to compete, which I think takes levels 15-20 up a notch. Good job.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    I like the distraction one, that's a unique ability that no other class has, kudos. Gives him a decent ability to compete, which I think takes levels 15-20 up a notch. Good job.
    Thanks. Should I add anything more to those later levels? They seem a little lacklustre in comparison to the lower ones.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Feels like you gave him a lot of effects you could get with feats, like use strength on intimidate, use bigger weapons, fast healing (PHB2 has that). All in all, you got him mostly higher numbers (except for pounce. that's mighty good), not that barbarians need ways to deal MORE damage, but if you want to make him more flavorful, and add lots of nifty abilities, it looks good.

    Will be just a bit stronger than the default fighter and monk. You may want to take a look on some homebrews out there if someone feels your barbarian got too strong.

    Also, if you think rage is too "meh" still, you could add more stuff to it, like an extra attack while raging (like Frenzy), and/or add an extra rage level, like Superior Rage or something, giving improved and mighty a bit earlier.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick_BR View Post
    Feels like you gave him a lot of effects you could get with feats, like use strength on intimidate, use bigger weapons, fast healing (PHB2 has that). All in all, you got him mostly higher numbers (except for pounce. that's mighty good), not that barbarians need ways to deal MORE damage, but if you want to make him more flavorful, and add lots of nifty abilities, it looks good.
    Yeah, I know. I did give him a significant boost to his numbers. But I thought I did a number of other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick_BR View Post
    Will be just a bit stronger than the default fighter and monk. You may want to take a look on some homebrews out there if someone feels your barbarian got too strong.

    Also, if you think rage is too "meh" still, you could add more stuff to it, like an extra attack while raging (like Frenzy), and/or add an extra rage level, like Superior Rage or something, giving improved and mighty a bit earlier.
    I thought I gave rage plenty of oomph actually, I was worried that the bonus to Strength and Constitution wasn't big enough. Aside from that, it gave you all sorts of wonderful things. Fast Healing, a really annoying distracting ability, extra damage, an extra attack and ability that suspiciously resembles Iron Heart Surge.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-12-10 at 09:06 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Yeah, I know. I did give him a significant boost to his numbers. But I thought I did a number of other things.
    Sadly, it's still tier 4. See, this barbarian just does the same things a standard barbarian does... just better. This is not tier 3; tier 3 is about having options. Your charge is stronger, you intimidate better, you can destroy traps. Terrific. A standard barbarian already does that, you see? Your power up boosts a barbarian higher within T4, but it's not T3.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Sadly, it's still tier 4. See, this barbarian just does the same things a standard barbarian does... just better. This is not tier 3; tier 3 is about having options. Your charge is stronger, you intimidate better, you can destroy traps. Terrific. A standard barbarian already does that, you see? Your power up boosts a barbarian higher within T4, but it's not T3.
    I'd actually beg to differ. Many of the features here are buffed up versions of feats as well as some nifty other abilities that've come up before, and some new ones. Barbarian now has feats to spend on other things, for example incarnum, or something.

    I'd say he got a lot better at intimidating. Prievously the Barbarian actually wasn't any better than anyone else, and was worse at it due to lack of skill points to spend and having charisma as a dump stat. Heck, excluding ToB and Casters, Zhenatrim Fighter does it much better, but now Barbarian is where he should be, the best intimidator.

    Furthermore, this Barbarian, ahem, can:
    -Find Traps, functioning as a Trapfinder and destroyer;
    -Intimidate, functioning as a party rageface, at later levels he can put save or suck effects on every enemy around, provided they aren't immune to fear/mind affecting;
    -Deal huge damage in a short time;
    -End magical Save or Suck/effects/spells affecting him;
    -Function as a party scout;
    -Function as a party Striker, Tank and Nuke, and also (subset roles) a Battlefield Controller, Mage Hunter, Grappler, Tripper, Disarmer, and also a Crowd Controller.
    -Heal himself enough to increase his resilience;
    -Function as the Party Orienteerer;
    -Can take feats to increase his versatility further.

    I say he's good at tripping, because oversized weapons and effective powerful build, coupled with high strength, make him very good at it. He also gets a bonus equal to half his level to strength checks, so lets say a 6th level barbarian with Strength (base+Strength Boost enhancement, say Gauntlets or a spell) 20 flies into a rage with his Spiked Chain or Halberd, gaining a strength score of 24, for a total trip modifier of +10. This is with no optimization besides putting an 18 in strength for a human.

    Let us compare him to the Warblade, who is tier 3. The Warblade can:
    -Deal huge damage in a short time;
    -Put effects (such as stunning/FF/Immobilizing) on enemies;
    -Buff Allies;
    -End magical/effects affecting him;
    -Function as the party Knowledge guy;
    -Function as the party Battle Controller, Tank, Nuke;
    -Functions with some skills but still can't do everything. Has to max concentration to use the good maneuvers (Such as Iron Heart Surge)
    -Relies on others for healing;
    -Can do nifty things with maneuvers and stances;
    -Needs to take some feats, to help with maneuvers.

    Tier 3, If I recall correctly, refers to a class that, given the same level of optimization, can do one thing well, and several other things competently, but not everything.

    Barbarian here seems to do one thing very well (Combat), another thing quite well (Intimidation), yet another thing decently (Trapfinding), and a slew of other things competently (Tripping, Grappling, Strength based things) and, depending on skill point investment/feats, can function well as a scout.

    I may be wrong, but that sounds like Tier 3 to me.

    However, the main imperative here, as I understand it, is to bring Barbarian to tier 3, so I'd like to hear some suggestions. I was thinking about giving him an Iron Guard's Glare effect from Turn 1, to make him even better at Battlefield Control. It'd be easy to explain it, too.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Sadly, it's still tier 4. See, this barbarian just does the same things a standard barbarian does... just better. This is not tier 3; tier 3 is about having options. Your charge is stronger, you intimidate better, you can destroy traps. Terrific. A standard barbarian already does that, you see? Your power up boosts a barbarian higher within T4, but it's not T3.
    Look, as Dante pointed out, the Barbarian can do plenty more, I trust his judgement on this issue. The fact is, it's opened up his roles plenty more, and improved his existing ones. He can now, tank, nuke, scout, demoralise, grapple, disarm, crawl around in a dungeon, and get in the way of spell-casters.

    So originally the barbarian could, kinda crawl around in the dungeon, nuke and kinda intimidate. Large difference.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-12-12 at 01:26 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Look, as Dante pointed out, the Barbarian can do plenty more, I trust his judgement on this issue. The fact is, it's opened up his roles plenty more, and improved his existing ones. He can now, tank, nuke, scout, demoralise, grapple, disarm, crawl around in a dungeon, and get in the way of spell-casters.

    So originally the barbarian could, kinda crawl around in the dungeon, nuke and kinda intimidate. Large difference.
    I disagree. All your pointed Barbarian roles are explored in Eldariel's guide to Barbarians.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I disagree. All your pointed Barbarian roles are explored in Eldariel's guide to Barbarians.
    Link? And if that is the case, the Barbarian would actually be a tier 3 class, which I'm sure you're going to disagree with.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Mm, you see, with Eldariel's guide the SRD Barbarian can indeed do all of these things- but you have to choose one of them. This barbarian "fix" can do all of them at once, and still keep its fast movement (scouting), has a decent DR progression, making trading for other variant features an actually difficult decision, and essentially makes the barbarian's "basically required feat choices" class features. All in all, I'm a fan of this fix.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Link? And if that is the case, the Barbarian would actually be a tier 3 class, which I'm sure you're going to disagree with.
    Here. I find the Barbarian to be at almost tier 3 levels, though most seem to disagree with me.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Barbarian A Fix [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by mootoall View Post
    Mm, you see, with Eldariel's guide the SRD Barbarian can indeed do all of these things- but you have to choose one of them. This barbarian "fix" can do all of them at once, and still keep its fast movement (scouting), has a decent DR progression, making trading for other variant features an actually difficult decision, and essentially makes the barbarian's "basically required feat choices" class features. All in all, I'm a fan of this fix.
    Ah thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Here. I find the Barbarian to be at almost tier 3 levels, though most seem to disagree with me.
    I've had a skim through it, but it seems that mootoall is pretty much right, although the barbarian has plenty of build options and can do all of these things, he can't do them all in one build and hence doesn't really make it to tier three.

    But hey, at least you're logically consistent.

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