Ninja questions...

[Goblinoid]

Im new here and this is my first post, so if this has allready been addressed im sorry.

Im trying to make a new character, my DM allows up to a +2 LA to races. So my idea was a Dark Whispergnome, with another +1 LA template, thats a Ninja/Invisible Blade/Master Thrower. I would use fient while in melee combat with my Kukris to use my sudden strike ability, and then when im at ranged i would use the Master Thrower abilities to there effect. The only thing i can't figure out is another +1 LA template that would help my character. ANy help would be appreciated.

[Boci]

There's the Chameleon template on crystalkeep. +10 Racial bonus to Hide
check and Gains a Climb speed equal to ½ its fastest non-Flying speed. If it
only has a Flying speed, it Climb speed is 10’ are the maifeatures that would fir your build, but there are also other abilities.

[Goblinoid]

thanks for that idea, also what would be some good equipment that i should get ill be starting at lvl 9, i know i wont be able to be the full build at this lvl, im planning on going into Invisible blade first then Master thrower. So my level progression would look something like this:
1: Ninja 1
2: Ninja 2
3: Ninja 3
4: Ninja 4
5: Ninja 5
6: Ninja 6
7: Ninja 7
8: Invisible blade 1
9: Invisible Blade 2 <---Starting here
10: Invisible Blade 3
11: Invisible Blade 4
12: Invisible Blade 5
13: Master Thrower 1
14: Master Thrower 2
15: Master Thrower 3
16: Master Thrower 4
17: Master Thrower 5
18-19 maybe Ninja again.

[dextercorvia]

Have you read the errata on Invisible Blade? They are only allowed one feint per round.

[Boci]

Depends on your build. No matter what you'll probably want braces of armour +2, 2 +1 kukris, and 3 state boosters (dex, con and wis), which comes to 20k, after that it all depends.
You can spend 3k to add the feycraft template to each kukri and save a feat on weapon finesse, grab an eternal or regular wand of greace if you can somehow get UMD, boost your bluff skill, ect.

Have you read the errata on Invisible Blade? They are only allowed one feint per round.

True, but it isn't overpowered to ignore that as long as you limit it to 1 or 2 attempts per attack.

[Goblinoid]

Did you mean the errata to the Complete Warrior book that says Invisible Blades can only use there Uncanny Feint ability once per round, making feint a free action, does that mean i can still feint as a move action or even a standard action also?

[Andion Isurand]

Obah-Blessed template from Dungeon Magazine 136 is a fun one to look at.

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Cha
one extra pair of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+2 LA

-- or --

+4 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Cha
two extra pairs of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+3 LA

[dextercorvia]

Did you mean the errata to the Complete Warrior book that says Invisible Blades can only use there Uncanny Feint ability once per round, making feint a free action, does that mean i can still feint as a move action

True, but even two feints a round is not really that great.And, once you have used your move action, how are you full-attacking?

or even a standard action also?

How does this help, at all?

[Goblinoid]

don't know just thought id ask...

[SilverLeaf167]

Maybe he could feint on the earlier round, then make a full attack, the feint applying to the first attack, then make the free feint, applying it to the second attack? I'm not sure if you can make free actions between the attacks, though...

[dextercorvia]

Maybe he could feint on the earlier round, then make a full attack, the feint applying to the first attack, then make the free feint, applying it to the second attack? I'm not sure if you can make free actions between the attacks, though...

It would work, but he has to use two rounds of actions (in melee) to get two feint induced Sudden strikes. The only thing all of those levels in Invisible Blade is giving him (aside from a reduced SA/SS progression) over an Improved Feinting Rogue or Ninja, is the possiblity of one extra attack (non SA/SS) every two rounds. That attack's damage is likely outweighed by the missing SA dice and the fact that the IFRoN is making all attacks at full BAB instead of -5.

[Goblinoid]

just wondering what's IFRoN

[AstralFire]

A Rogue or Ninja using the feat Improved Feint.

[Escheton]

Is dark that awesome template from the book about illithids and such. Lords of Madness or something?
If not, check that one out.

Also, ninjas suck. Take swordsages or spellthiefs. Add on some incarnum or vestiges for funsies.

[Goblinoid]

since most people dont like the ninja, what would be a good base and prestige class comboto get a good amount of sneak attack damage by level 9?

[Eldariel]

since most people dont like the ninja, what would be a good base and prestige class comboto get a good amount of sneak attack damage by level 9?

Well, Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4 is fairly strong. Gets Hunter's Eye, 3d6 base SA and 3d6 SA from the spell. Rogue 7/Swordsage 2 or Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2 with Daring outlaw also comes out at 6d6. Just plain Rogue is fine too.

[thubby]

with exception, racial la is usually worse than class levels. you may want to just run with the extra level.

[WeeFreeMen]

Sadly, rouge is more useful (read: Powerful) than Ninja.
The only thing ninja has going for it, is the Ki-Uses for invisibility.
Unfortunately, Sudden Strike is a really gimped version of Sneak Attack.
As for the ninja being viable, his only 1-trick pony is one that can be replaced by a simple magical item or semi-optimized hide skill (or even a template).

Lets do a simple comparasion of Ninja vs. basic Rouge (SRD)

Spoiler

Show

Ninja:
Ki Uses: Invisible / Ethereal / Concealment
Sudden strikes (very situational)
Poison use / Trap-finding
Evasion

vs.

Rouge:
Sneak attack (much more useful)
Special Abilities (Crippling Strike? YES! Skill Mastery! Oh Heck Yes!)
Poison use / Trap-Finding
More skill points, slightly better skill list.

---------------------------------------
You can see that the only thing that makes Ninjas anymore "special" than a rouge is their Ki-abilities, which I remind you makes your character further MAD by requiring Wis (for Ki-uses and AC). Now while that may be nice and all, if you want more bang for your buck you can get away with much better.
---------
I can help more if you could detail exactly what your looking for your character to do? Is feinting a major interest to you? Or are you open for other options, tripping, disarming, ranged?

[Salanmander]

I actually really enjoy ninja, and for a character planning on focusing on ranged attacks, it has a lot more merit than those focusing on melee. It's traditionally non-trivial to get ranged sneak attacks, and swift action invisibility helps a lot with that. Even at high levels, a lot of things can't see invisible, or will let you get at least one full attack off, and a master thrower sneak attack full attack can be DEVASTATING, because every attack hits, and you have a ton of them.

I'm AFB right now, so I don't remember if it's +1 or +2 LA, but you might look at Shadow Creature template. It has a lot of quite useful bonuses for sneaky types.

[Crossblade]

... ill be starting at lvl 9,... So my level progression would look something like this:
1: Ninja 1
2: Ninja 2
....

Just want to make a quick point out, that you did the leveling backwards. LA is added before class levels. So you start at level 9, you have 2 LA and 7 Class levels.
So it will be:
3: Ninja 1
4: Ninja 2... etc

I'm aware of the possible changing of builds, but I wished to point this out.

[Psyren]

Sadly, rouge is more useful (read: Powerful) than Ninja.
The only thing ninja has going for it, is the Ki-Uses for invisibility.
Unfortunately, Sudden Strike is a really gimped version of Sneak Attack.
As for the ninja being viable, his only 1-trick pony is one that can be replaced by a simple magical item or semi-optimized hide skill (or even a template).

Lets do a simple comparasion of Ninja vs. basic Rouge (SRD)

Spoiler

Show

Ninja:
Ki Uses: Invisible / Ethereal / Concealment
Sudden strikes (very situational)
Poison use / Trap-finding
Evasion

vs.

Rouge:
Sneak attack (much more useful)
Special Abilities (Crippling Strike? YES! Skill Mastery! Oh Heck Yes!)
Poison use / Trap-Finding
More skill points, slightly better skill list.

---------------------------------------
You can see that the only thing that makes Ninjas anymore "special" than a rouge is their Ki-abilities, which I remind you makes your character further MAD by requiring Wis (for Ki-uses and AC). Now while that may be nice and all, if you want more bang for your buck you can get away with much better.
---------
I can help more if you could detail exactly what your looking for your character to do? Is feinting a major interest to you? Or are you open for other options, tripping, disarming, ranged?

That was a brilliant analysis of Ninjas vs. makeup

[gorfnab]

Well you could go Dark with Shadow Walker (+1LA) Template from Unapproachable East for some useful sneaky SLAs. Especially nice if you go Dark Shadow Walker Whisper Gnome Ninja with the feats Magic in the Blood (PGtF), Craven (CoR), Darkstalker (LoM), and Silencing Strike (RoS).

Otherwise there is the Shadow Creature (+2LA) from Lords of Madness that also mixes well with Whisper Gnome.