[d&d 3.5] Roc, how to fight one

[Gnaritas]

click for Roc stats

I am wondering how my party is going to fight a roc.

Melee Fighters: Since the Roc has a 15ft reach i am guessing he can fly over them without getting in reach of their weapons, while trying to snatch them. They will either have to go ranged or find a way to get more reach. Or fly.
Ranged attacks: will work but the 200+ hp will be enough for a bunch of attacks.

The roc will swoop in and attack one player, if the attack hits (extremely likely since it's attack bonus is huge) it can grapple him (which it will win) and take off, back to its nest while crushing the life out of that person.

I think most of them have a way to teleport, so they can get back on the ground.

I was wondering if there is a way to avoid being grappled by it at all, can they ready to jump away?

[FelixG]

Prepare action and trip it, tripped things with wings take a nice nose dive into the ground.

Now you just have to find out how to beat it while flying, some GMs might let you ready an action to take a swipe at its feet when it comes in to strike

[Acanous]

You can ready an action to attack any creature with reach as it's attacking you, even if it's attacking you from outside your reach. It's in the rules compendium somewhere.
Aside from that, yeah. Go ranged.

[fireinakasha]

Forget tripping it. Ready action to jump on to it and grab hold - a grapple check or climb check, at DM's discretion - and then continue to maintain the grapple while you stab it to death. Then you receive bonus XP for the stylish defeat.

Shadow of the Colossus style.

[AstralFire]

I regret to inform you that you can't stop.

Can't stop the Roc.

[JaronK]

You realize 2 points of Int damage takes it out instantly? And that there's a spell that just does that (as a touch attack)?

Now it's helpless. Tie it down. Get someone with a decent handle animal. Make it your pet. Ride it around town.

JaronK

[Gnaritas]

Prepare action and trip it, tripped things with wings take a nice nose dive into the ground.

Now you just have to find out how to beat it while flying, some GMs might let you ready an action to take a swipe at its feet when it comes in to strike

My players are not Huge.

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

You can ready an action to attack any creature with reach as it's attacking you, even if it's attacking you from outside your reach. It's in the rules compendium somewhere.
Aside from that, yeah. Go ranged.

This makes sense, that will help them a lot.

Forget tripping it. Ready action to jump on to it and grab hold - a grapple check or climb check, at DM's discretion - and then continue to maintain the grapple while you stab it to death. Then you receive bonus XP for the stylish defeat.

Shadow of the Colossus style.

It has a +37 grapple check, but yes, i can imagine i do not stick with RAW and make it a climb check, but then what, the roc flies up 80 ft per round. Get ready for quite a stylish death.

You realize 2 points of Int damage takes it out instantly? And that there's a spell that just does that (as a touch attack)?

Now it's helpless. Tie it down. Get someone with a decent handle animal. Make it your pet. Ride it around town.

JaronK

Yes, the party however does not have that spell.

[fireinakasha]

It has a +37 grapple check, but yes, i can imagine i do not stick with RAW and make it a climb check, but then what, the roc flies up 80 ft per round. Get ready for quite a stylish death.

The simple solution here is to grab hold of the roc's wings and lock them into place, and then glide back down on its body. duh

[Gnaritas]

I am guessing you are being sarcastic as at that point you will need a grapple check.......i am not sure any of my players can make it in the best case scenaria (1vs20).

[ZeroNumerous]

I was wondering if there is a way to avoid being grappled by it at all, can they ready to jump away?

A Ring of Freedom of Movement(or a casting of the spell) negates all grapple checks. Alternatively, casting the spell also negates all grapple checks(albeit, this takes longer than just wearing rings).

Either way, since it's CR 9 I assume the players have 4th level spells.

Bestow Curse(Intelligence) nukes it into unconsciousness instantly. Charm Monster instantly defeats it. Summon Monster IV(large fiendish monstrous spider) can cause it to fall to the ground and allow the party to stab it. Black Tentacles or Solid Fog can force it to the ground.

The only mundane way to force it to the ground would be ready action to throw a Huge or Gargantuan net on it.

EDIT:

I am guessing you are being sarcastic as at that point you will need a grapple check.......i am not sure any of my players can make it in the best case scenaria (1vs20).

No, everyone's making the assumption that you're willing to bend the rules for a fun and interesting game.

[Signmaker]

Well you see, first you need to remove the Dragonsblood pool from the Universe so he doesn't go by his usual early-entry caster trick....

oh wait, wrong Roc.


Thing to note: "Grappling and Flying Away" corresponds to 1. A grapple check and 2. Fending off other players, who will likely try to stop you. If you want 2 to occur, you have to take a -20 penalty to the grab (as per improved grab) to retain useful things like Dex to AC (deny sneak attacks off the grapple), natural reach, and being able to attack back. So while the +39 is an intimidating number, it requires a bit of smart play.

I'd assume that the proper play would be for everyone to do their usual part. The caster is likely to have some sort of Fog spell or Ray spell which is able to hamper or injure the Roc, the Rogue-type is going to be able to sneak attack unless you take the -20, etc. It doesn't actually do all too much damage at its CR, either, which means that the trapped party member can tank it while the Ranged party members do tricks. And that's doing it the hard way. It has a terrible Touch AC and a targetable Will save (Can you say "Hold Monsterrrrrrrrrsplat"?), so the Caster has plenty of options open.

[fireinakasha]

No, everyone's making the assumption that you're willing to bend the rules for a fun and interesting game.

Half sarcasm, half this.

On a somewhat more realistic note, maybe they could attach one end of a chain to a grappling hook, then the other end to the ground. It would be up to you to determine how to arbitrate this on a mechanical level, but I imagine that a roc that has been tied to the ground should be easy to summarily defeat.

[Gnaritas]

No, everyone's making the assumption that you're willing to bend the rules for a fun and interesting game.

I am quite sure my players would not enjoy that. I mean, the thing is Gargantuan, not large, my players do not enjoy completely unrealistic (as far as that goes in a fantasy setting) actions.

Thing to note: "Grappling and Flying Away" corresponds to 1. A grapple check and 2. Fending off other players, who will likely try to stop you. If you want 2 to occur, you have to take a -20 penalty to the grab (as per improved grab) to retain useful things like Dex to AC (deny sneak attacks off the grapple), natural reach, and being able to attack back. So while the +39 is an intimidating number, it requires a bit of smart play.

I'd assume that the proper play would be for everyone to do their usual part. The caster is likely to have some sort of Fog spell or Ray spell which is able to hamper or injure the Roc, the Rogue-type is going to be able to sneak attack unless you take the -20, etc. It doesn't actually do all too much damage at its CR, either, which means that the trapped party member can tank it while the Ranged party members do tricks. And that's doing it the hard way. It has a terrible Touch AC and a targetable Will save (Can you say "Hold Monsterrrrrrrrrsplat"?), so the Caster has plenty of options open.

Where does the -20 come from if players want to stop it? Also how would the others stop it if the roc can snatch it's prey and fly away in the same round.

[AslanCross]

Prepare action and trip it, tripped things with wings take a nice nose dive into the ground.

Now you just have to find out how to beat it while flying, some GMs might let you ready an action to take a swipe at its feet when it comes in to strike

It has a massive size modifier for being Gargantuan, though.

[Signmaker]

Where does the -20 come from if players want to stop it? Also how would the others stop it if the roc can snatch it's prey and fly away in the same round.

Stopping the Roc isn't really a necessity if it is simply grabbing the Fighter. If it doesn't take the penalty, its AC is reduced to 15, which should be QUITE hittable for any Ranged player. If you happen to have a Rogue, they're also netting lots of Sneak Attack damage dice, which means that the 207 or so HP will get chipped away methodically.

The -20 is done by the controller of the Roc (you, I'm presuming) when the Improved Grab grapple is attempted. As per the text of Improved Grab, taking a -20 means that you free your other limbs from the grapple, which allows Dex to AC, Natural Reach, AoOs, etc. If you feel as though +39 is too high, use +19 instead so that while the Roc is harder to hit/approach, the Fighter has a better chance of getting out.

If players want to stop the Roc, they have a caster, yes? Bother the caster, who should have 5th level spells by now, and therefore a large number of ways to simply stop the thing. Even Solid Fog makes it drop like a roc(k).

The Roc, as listed, can't get far enough away in one round to escape medium-range spells.

[Gnaritas]

It has a massive size modifier for being Gargantuan, though.

It does not matter. Like i already said:

My players are not Huge.

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

[fireinakasha]

I am quite sure my players would not enjoy that. I mean, the thing is Gargantuan, not large, my players do not enjoy completely unrealistic (as far as that goes in a fantasy setting) actions.

I find your player's lack of imagination disturbing.

Their punishment shall be a long and tedious procession of ranged attack rolls.

OH BUT WAIT!
There would be no opposed grapple check to lock the wings in order to glide back down, if the roc is unconscious or dead. So just keep making those climb checks and beating on it until it's down, then glide. Easy!

Edit: If one of your players has the ability to deliver a stunning blow, they can just ready action to swing to stun at the roc. A stunned roc can't fly, as it cannot maintain the minimum speed required to stay airborne.

Edit 2: Along the same lines, they could invest in some poison with a stun or paralysis effect, or some other effect that would deny the roc movement.

Edit 3:

You realize 2 points of Int damage takes it out instantly? And that there's a spell that just does that (as a touch attack)?

I am pretty sure there is also a poison that does that... yeah, here it is. DMG poison, Id Moss. Of course, for any of the DMG poisons, the roc would have to roll a 1 to be effected, but at least that's more of a chance for it to work than trying to trip it...

[Gnaritas]

I find your player's lack of imagination disturbing.

There are a lot of interesting things they can come up with. But holding down the wings of a 8000 pound animal with a 80 feet wingspan as a medium sized-character is not something they would think off. That is not a lack of imagination, but the presence of common sense.

[Signmaker]

So, about those spells? =P

[Otherworld Odd]

It seems to me like you're really pushing against everyone suggestions and continuing to say that your players can't do it. Well, if they can't do it then maybe your best answer would be to not make them fight it. Sustitite somethingthey *can* fight. Something that doesn't fly and just sits r
there and takes it.


Honestly though, all the suggestions I have read are very valid and interesting ways to kill it. Throw your players a bone.

[Gnaritas]

It seems to me like you're really pushing against everyone suggestions and continuing to say that your players can't do it. Well, if they can't do it then maybe your best answer would be to not make them fight it. Sustitite somethingthey *can* fight. Something that doesn't fly and just sits r
there and takes it.


Honestly though, all the suggestions I have read are very valid and interesting ways to kill it. Throw your players a bone.

The suggestions i have actively fought against are tripping (simply isn't possible) and grappling the wings of the gargantuan roc (which isn't possible either).

The other suggestions i have taken seriously. I did not know about the -20 to grapple and you may have interpretted my question where it came from as a "that's not true, proof it!". With the -20 penalty or the rogue archer in the party being able to sneak it will give them more of an edge, that combined with the option to ready an action against a creature with reach (which i did not know of) should give them a decent chance to battle the creature without even getting into spells.
Jumping on a roc is definitely an option for my players, but more than half of them would not enjoy falling a great distance.
I am not saying all ideas are bad. In fact, except the ones i mentioned first, they should all work, but that does not mean they work for my party if they simply do not have the ability to do so. I have however seen suggestions that might work for my party (like fog).

[Tyger]

You can ready an action to attack any creature with reach as it's attacking you, even if it's attacking you from outside your reach. It's in the rules compendium somewhere.
Aside from that, yeah. Go ranged.

Care to site that?

[Gnaritas]

Care to site that?

I just checked the Rules Compendium and was not able to locate it.

[Tyger]

I just checked the Rules Compendium and was not able to locate it.

Yeah, I've read that cover to cover a couple times, and that never caught my eye before. I have a funny feeling the original post was tongue in cheek, but on the off chance that it wasn't I thought I'd ask politely.

[Gnaritas]

That said, i can imagine i would still allow it them to chop at the claws with reduced damage maybe or a treshold damage that will disable that specific claw for grappling.

[Acanous]

Care to site that?

looking for it now, actually.
Bloody compendium is like reading through a RIFTS book.

If not I might be thinking something in Pathfinder,[Edit: Nope, Pathfinder states you can't do that specifically. Which makes their "Strike Back" feat useful.] but I was pretty sure the rule was 3.5. It came out when our gaming group was fighting a giant from the other side of a partial wall. Giant was staying far enough away to try hitting them despite the cover bonus, and couldn't be counterattacked. Diddn't help that it was dark and only one player could draw LoS on the giant reliably. One guy got the idea to attack the giant's arm when he swung, and so a bunch of rules had to be checked; readying actions, attacking something when you (technically) don't have line of sight, and the reach rules.

No luck so far, but I'll keep looking. I did, however, find something cool in here while looking through the RC about things with natural reach using reach weapons >:}

[Ernir]

Your players will be fine. Players are a troublesomely inventive lot.

Worst case scenario, the Roc flies off with whoever of the party looks the tastiest, and feeds him to its young. Not like it's going to cause a TPK when it's just out hunting*.

*Mothers defending their nests may behave differently.

[Otherworld Odd]

And don't forget that fighting and succeeding in killing isn't always the option. If your players are in the encounter with the Roc and find they can't beat them, then perhaps it would be wise of you to encourage them to flee the encounter so they all survive. Remember that parties always have to be outmatched sometime during their adventuring career and be forced to realize there's things out there stronger than they are. This isn't showing weakness, it shows intelligence and wisdom and knowing your character's limits. If you look at any type of fiction/fantasy novels out there, there's countless examples of this. It provides believability and a more immersive story, even though they're running. If they do run after fighting the Roc and realizing they can't win, perhaps throw some bonus experience their way for giving it their best shot.

On the tripping note:

Spoiler

Show

Trip
Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped. Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.
Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking the defender prone

Perhaps this link could help you as well:
Tactics Against Flying Creatures

[Gnaritas]

Oh i am definitely a DM that can give credit for knowing when to retreat and have prepared for such a tactic. Knowing my players i very much doubt they will take that option.

The trip part seems logical, but it does not negate the rule about sizes, hence it cannot be tripped. Look in the PHB and compare the human to the Dragon, now make the dragon about 20% smaller and pretend the human is tripping the dragon without laughing.....no, i said without laughing.

[Person_Man]

Actually, the 1 time I've ever seen the Monk's Slow Fall ability be useful was when fighting a Roc. It swooped in, Grappled the Monk, flew up 60 feet, and then dropped the Monk. Fun times.