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    Default So you have infinite power points...

    So, assume you're a level 20 psion, with no prestige classes. You might have picked up some of the more interesting feats for a psion to have (like Midnight Augmentation and Psycarnum Infusion, not to mention the essentia to use them), but otherwise, you're pretty much just a level 20 manifester.

    However, you have infinite power points. Maybe you used the Bestow Power trick, or something else. Either way, you can manifest as much as you want.

    What would be the most powerful things you could do, with this option?


    The purpose of this exercise, at least for me, is to see what problems are brought up by infinite power points. The thought of it seems utterly ludicrous, but I'm honestly having a hard time pinpointing anything absurdly broken you could do, at least when compared to a 'normal' 20th level manifester or caster.

    A decent psion at this level is going to have well over 460 power points already, which means that augmenting all powers to full in combat is pretty much an option. You might have to be slightly more careful if you're using Schism to get an extra action each round too, but even then that is a lot of power points to toss around.

    So where does being unlimited in this regard really get broken? Because I'm sure there is something, I'm just not entirely sure where to look.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Well, infinite power points are about the only situation where an elan becomes OP. But even with infinite, it's a suboptimal thing to rely a lot on since it robs you of your swift action next round. As you noted, the action economy becomes a joke, though they're far from the worst abusers on that front now.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2010-11-29 at 11:06 AM.


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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    It's not a completely far-fetched scenario. There is already a way to get infinite power points via the Metamind prestige class. It only advances Psion/Wilder by 5/10 for its levels though.

    I've used Psionics quite extensively and I can tell you that most of its cheese isn't nearly as strong as a supremely optimized Wizard's cheese. The power point system keeps you from making your powers too powerful and needing to expend a Psionic focus for Psionic "Metamagic" means you have to do some serious gymnastics to get enough foci to really abuse them. The strength comes in the fact that the Psion can cast effectively lvl 9 Powers all day long maxed out in PP but at the cost of using that same pool for casting lower lvl powers. That's personally why I've always liked Psionics more than the Vancian system, you have a pool of power to draw from, not slots set in stone each day.

    Where unlimited PP gets out of control is in that you have no limit per day at all. Anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day. If a Wizard could cast all of his spells all day w/o using any slots of course he'd be broken.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Using the Midnight Augmentation/Psycarnum Infusion/Bestow Power trick, your infinite power points are pretty much limited to out-of-combat situations, such as 'recharging' after a battle or buff sequence. As such, you'd be best served by manifesting a large number of long-duration buffs before you even left your bedroom in the morning.

    Otherwise, it just means you can pretty much enter any combat at or close to full strength. Pretty handy, but a series of fights without much time to rest will eventually tap your power.

    If you wanted to, you could just keep manifesting Mass Time Hop to travel to the FUTURE. *shrug*

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Being able to pump ML/break the ML cap is going to be your top priority; having infinity power points doesn't matter if you can only use 20 at a time.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by CodeRed View Post
    Where unlimited PP gets out of control is in that you have no limit per day at all. Anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day. If a Wizard could cast all of his spells all day w/o using any slots of course he'd be broken.
    Why?

    That's the question I'm asking in this thread.

    It can't be that you can fully augment all your powers all the time in combat, because at the level I'm talking about, you can practically do that already.

    Most of the actually interesting psionic buffs either last all day already (like Mind Blank), or are personal only, so I have yet to find a good use involving buffing the entire party constantly, though I suppose I could missing something.

    So what does that leave? Utility powers? Which powers are going to be the most problematic, and why?

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    If you're expending around 60 PP/round, which is roughly possible if you're {Scrubbed} the action economy and my memory isn't even more terrible than I thought, you're only getting a maximum of about eight rounds a day like that at level 20. Especially if you throw in temporal acceleration or buffs. I'm not sure I agree that a Psion can -always- nova at 20 to begin with.
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2010-11-29 at 07:49 PM.


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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by CodeRed View Post
    Where unlimited PP gets out of control is in that you have no limit per day at all. Anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day. If a Wizard could cast all of his spells all day w/o using any slots of course he'd be broken.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    If you're expending around 60 PP/round, which is roughly possible if you're {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} the action economy and my memory isn't even more terrible than I thought, you're only getting a maximum of about eight rounds a day like that at level 20. Especially if you throw in temporal acceleration or buffs. I'm not sure I agree that a Psion can -always- nova at 20 to begin with.
    Hmm, I suppose if you're assuming they'll be using quicken power constantly on top of Schism, then that statement becomes a lot less valid, yeah.
    I was mostly thinking- with one of those torcs of power preservation, you save a power point per casting (not a lot, but significant over the entire day). Using schism instead of quicken power, at least most of the time, will ensure that you're saving power points even with extra actions (Schism only costs extra power points to use once- Quicken costs +6 power points per casting, so anything you manifest with schism basically has the same effect but costs less).

    It helps you keep costs down. Further, it doesn't seem too rash to assume that in some places you won't need fully augmented powers, so you could deduct a little from that too...

    But assuming three actions a round and a full buff sequence, I do agree, you'd not get full augmentation even with all those power points.


    So essentially, more power points would allow you to reliably get up to three actions per round rather than two.
    Assuming you aren't spending your focus on something else.
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2010-11-29 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    One that immediately comes to mind is Linked Twinned Hustle for some bonus move actions. This trick lets you and your psicrystal refocus at the end of each of your turns.

    1) Both you and your psicrystal are focused.
    2) With your Swift, manifest Twinned Hustle linked to Hustle (expending both focuses - total PP cost 3+3+6 = 12.) - you now have two extra move actions, with a third one coming in the next round. Use the two extra move actions to regain both your focus and your psicrystal's, then take your other actions for the turn as normal (move and standard.)
    3) Next round, your linked Hustle goes off. Use your swift again to repeat (2).
    You now have 3 bonus move actions (2 from the twinned hustle, and the third one from last round's linked power.) Use two of them to regain your foci again, and you have your standard + 2 move actions. This of course means that you can manifest a standard-action power modified with two more metapsionic feats (any), use your two move actions to regain your foci, and start the cycle over from (1).

    This trick allows you to use a metapsionic feat every turn, and double metapsionics every other turn. Or you can just zip around the battlefield or something.

    To generate infinite move actions with this, you need some way to either (a) convert move actions to swift actions, or (b) manifest Hustle as a move action. I don't know of either, but maybe someone else does...?
    Last edited by Psyren; 2010-11-29 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    The only problem with the Twin Linked Hustle is that you need a full round action to recover your psicrystal's focus, unless it was ruled that Psionic Meditation also lets you focus your psicrystal as a move.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
    The only problem with the Twin Linked Hustle is that you need a full round action to recover your psicrystal's focus, unless it was ruled that Psionic Meditation also lets you focus your psicrystal as a move.
    The RAW is conflicting. While it does specify a full-round action in the feat itself, it also says this:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Psionically focusing your psicrystal works just like focusing yourself.
    So it would end up a DM call at that point.


    Ironically, there is a RAW way around that RAW; Your psicrystal can gain feats by RAW, so have it take Hidden Talent (for a PP reserve) and Psionic Meditation itself. (Boost its Wis to 13 and give it 7 ranks in Concentration via the method of your choice.) Now your Psicrystal can become focused by itself using its own move actions. Share Hustle with it and it can continue to become focused.

    The idea behind this second trick is that Psicrystal Containment lets you spend your crystal's focus, but doesn't actually care where that focus came from. In short, you can use the second half of PsiCon (spend your crystal's focus) without having to use the first (spend a full-round action to focus your crystal.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2010-11-29 at 01:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    You generate Affinity Field/Synchronity Loop and proceed to do anything infinite times in 3 seconds.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    You generate Affinity Field/Synchronity Loop and proceed to do anything infinite times in 3 seconds.
    Hm yes. Affinity Field abuse could be quite troublesome.
    It seems like it shows up a lot in psionics optimization.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2010-11-29 at 02:47 PM.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Hm yes. Affinity Field abuse could be quite troublesome.
    It seems like it shows up a lot in psionics optimization.
    It's just poorly written, and serves no purpose but to enable shenanigans. Ban it, I say.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Hm yes. Affinity Field abuse could be quite troublesome.
    It seems like it shows up a lot in psionics optimization.
    Affinity Field does lots of stupid stuff with anything that grants actions. Well, Synchronity is really bad too, since it's basically a swift action for a standard action (or two with Twin Power; Dominant Ideal Ardent can have all sorts of fun with that not needing Psionic Focus for Metapsionics...).
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Consumptive Field abuse bears mentioning, but that's a niche build that utilizes an already broken spell, so its not really too big of a problem.

    On another note, "hard to wear out" and "can't wear out except over *extremely* short time periods" are different enough that a DM would have to work significantly harder to challenge one over the other. In one case, a deadline that prevents recharging will work(Say, 10 hours from now, with events happening a few times intermittently.), while to prevent recharging to full in the second requires having events which prevent even a half hour's rest with enough challenges to force the psion to start rationing.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Broken like warlocks, dragonfire adepts, martial adepts, binders, meldshapers…

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    Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.

    With infinite PP, you can manifest over and over and over again, and all combat situations will be handled with death effects. You can, if you so choose, put every living being you come across in a microcosm, because you can augment it enough to completely ignore the HP restriction. It's a good thing you can't augment the size of the AoE, or you could kill everything with one standard action.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by megabyter5 View Post
    Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.

    With infinite PP, you can manifest over and over and over again, and all combat situations will be handled with death effects. You can, if you so choose, put every living being you come across in a microcosm, because you can augment it enough to completely ignore the HP restriction. It's a good thing you can't augment the size of the AoE, or you could kill everything with one standard action.
    No, no you couldn't. There is a cap on how much PP you can spend per power.
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by megabyter5 View Post
    Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.

    With infinite PP, you can manifest over and over and over again, and all combat situations will be handled with death effects. You can, if you so choose, put every living being you come across in a microcosm, because you can augment it enough to completely ignore the HP restriction. It's a good thing you can't augment the size of the AoE, or you could kill everything with one standard action.
    Even with infinite power points, you can't ignore augment restrictions. Our hypothetical manifester probably wouldn't be able to manifest any power that cost above 21 power points (assuming an orange ioun stone or a similar boost), or 24 if they overchannel.

    So the max they could affect with microcosm is 170 hp.
    And tons of people will have immunity to compulsions and mind affecting.
    And this is something a manifester with limited power points could do anyway.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2010-11-29 at 04:01 PM.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by megabyter5 View Post
    Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.
    Funny, but I recall someone claiming that "anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day".
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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    You generate Affinity Field/Synchronity Loop and proceed to do anything infinite times in 3 seconds.
    Synchronicity was the first thing that came to my mind too. I personally enjoy sharing it with psicrystals (and, in one entertaining case, also a familiar); helps get around the need for Affinity Field and lowers the level that you can do it at.

    Lessee, what else can you do? You could have some fun with infinite quintessence. One casting per round, 24 hours a day (finding a way to go without sleep isn't hard), and you could build up quite a stockpile.

    Oh, you could walk around spamming Fission every few minutes to make sure there's two of you. Heck, you could even try using it with Mind Switch to make fissioned duplicates of everyone in your party, including your psicrystal.

    If you're not using that Complete Psionic nerf, you can keep an army of astral constructs at your beck and call. You can Bestow Power any other psions on your team to recharge them whenever you want. You can use a maximally augmented Temporal Acceleration every single round, just to laugh even more in the face of space-time (and action balance).

    Nothing quite as impressive as the synchronicity thing, but plenty of fun options.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    There are like 5 ways to gain actions for PP in psionics. with infinite power points, you can just spam everything and anything, all within 3s.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Let's see... assuming just the XPH (no Complete Psionic nerfs)

    Round 1:
    Move: Gain Focus (Psionic Meditation)
    Swift: Overchanneled Temporal Acceleration for 23 power points (four rounds)
    TA Round 1: Focus Psicyrstal (Psicrystal Containment)
    TA Round 2: Astral Construct
    TA Round 3: Astral Construct
    TA Round 4: Astral Construct, Quickened Body Adjustment
    Standard: Extended Timeless Body
    Astral Constructs beat up on the target.
    Round N+1: Repeat Round 1

    This is a 'neener neener' build, but pretty much requires infinite power points to pull off.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Shift to astral plane (basically gives you 2 or 3 free rounds because of time difference, buff schism etc) go nova...on every single encounter...

    But really, its a lot less overpowering than a wizard with infinite spells.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    Shift to astral plane (basically gives you 2 or 3 free rounds because of time difference, buff schism etc) go nova...on every single encounter...

    But really, its a lot less overpowering than a wizard with infinite spells.
    Actually, I'd argue against that. an infinite wizard is RIDICULOUS, yes. But he can't do what a Psion can, which is use all of his infinite abilities at once. He's capped by the action limit, while a Psion doesn't have that cap.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Quote Originally Posted by term1nally s1ck View Post
    Actually, I'd argue against that. an infinite wizard is RIDICULOUS, yes. But he can't do what a Psion can, which is use all of his infinite abilities at once. He's capped by the action limit, while a Psion doesn't have that cap.
    Never played a psion to high levels. Explain please? All I know about is schism, which doubles his actions.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Affinity field, schism, synchronicity, linked power. Just read those 4, and you'll have a rough idea. He can create action loops that provide bonus actions with every iteration. With infinite PP, you can have infinite standard actions (and via the start/complete full-round, infinite full-round actions, and every other action type while you're at it.)

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    I'm AFB

    All I have is the SRD. All that has (I think) is Synchronicty. I fail to see how that would help much.

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    Default Re: So you have infinite power points...

    Affinity Field and Schism are SRD, Linked Power and Synchronicity are C. Psi. Synchronicity is the real problem here.


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