Quick Question on Crusaders

[dbauers]

So I saw a crusader in action, and it looked like too much fun to not try. I've looked up some different builds, and I have one that looks pretty good, but I want to make sure I'm reading the power recovery correctly.

Here's the scenario:

If I have a 6th level crusader with the Extra Granted Maneuver, he has 5 readied and 3 granted at the beginning of combat (as well as each time he recovers).

The book says that at the beginning of the encounter, you get the 3 granted, and then at the end of each turn you are granted another. If you can't be granted one at the end of a turn because no more are available, you recover all expended ones and are granted 3 maneuvers immediately.

The way I am reading this, by the end of round 3, you always have all your maneuvers available each round.

round 1: granted 3 at the beginning with 2 withheld. you use one of them during the round. at end of turn you are granted another (only 1 left in reserve, and 1 is expended).

round 2: you use one of your maneuvers, and at the end of the turn are granted your 5th and final one (you now have 3 granted, and 2 expended, with none withheld).

round 3: you use one of your maneuvers and at the end of the turn you have 2 available and 3 expended. since you have none available to be granted, your 3 expended are all recovered and immediately granted (leaving none withheld).

round 4: you use any of your maneuvers, and at the end of the turn you have none withheld, so you immediately recover and are granted the one you just used. then for all subsequent rounds this cycle repeats.

So im wondering:
Is this really how it is? The guy has revitalizing strike (which is decent healing for this level), and it seems like he would be awfully tough to take down in melee if he can use revitalizing strike in one of the first 3 rounds, and then every round from 4 until the end of the combat.

[dbauers]

Ok, so it wasnt such a "quick" question.

[dsmiles]

So im wondering:
Is this really how it is? The guy has revitalizing strike (which is decent healing for this level), and it seems like he would be awfully tough to take down in melee if he can use revitalizing strike in one of the first 3 rounds, and then every round from 4 until the end of the combat.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think you recover your expended ones when you don't have any left, and that's when you refresh your 3 granted. Somebody else should be able to clarify better. I haven't played a Crusader, just a Warblade.

[Mongoose87]

Your analysis is correct. Crusaders are the bomb.

[Antonok]

The way I did it when I played one was when all your expended maneuvers were refreshed, it completely reset back to (in this case) 3 readied, 2 withheld.

[dbauers]

thats what we thought, and thats how my buddy was playing it, so i didnt bother reading it.

the exact wording is "if, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair (which becomes 3 with the extra granted maneuver feat--this is my own addition) of readied maneuvers is granted to you."

it certainly reads to me as i had described. just wondering what other people think about this "loop"


edit: this was a response to dsmiles

[dbauers]

Your analysis is correct. Crusaders are the bomb.

they're certainly resilient. my party (at level 4 i think) fought a level 6 crusader, with him having just an annoying minion, so it was basically 4 on 1. he didnt throw out a ton of dmg, but MAN did he take a beating.

[dsmiles]

edit: this was a response to dsmiles

Ah. So that's how it works. Like I said, I've only played a warblade previously.

[dbauers]

oh, and thanks for the responses everyone!

[Douglas]

It might be possible to twist the wording that way, but the intent is quite clearly a total reset. The "new pair" (or trio with Extra Granted Maneuver) replaces your current granted set rather than adding to it.

1. Start of combat, grant 3.
2. Use 1, grant 1, resulting in 1 expended, 3 granted, 1 withheld.
3. Use 1, grant 1, resulting in 2 expended, 3 granted, 0 withheld.
4. Use 1, none left to grant so reset - shuffle all 5 back together and grant 3, resulting in 3 granted and 2 withheld.
5. Goto 2.

[pffh]

It might be possible to twist the wording that way, but the intent is quite clearly a total reset. The "new pair" (or trio with Extra Granted Maneuver) replaces your current granted set rather than adding to it.

1. Start of combat, grant 3.
2. Use 1, grant 1, resulting in 1 expended, 3 granted, 1 withheld.
3. Use 1, grant 1, resulting in 2 expended, 3 granted, 0 withheld.
4. Use 1, none left to grant so reset - shuffle all 5 back together and grant 3, resulting in 3 granted and 2 withheld.
5. Goto 2.

Yup that's how I understand it and is how it's done in my group.

[Godskook]

The RAW is more clear. It specifically says:

.......Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are withheld. ..........

This is said in the section dealing with round 3, not round 1, of combat. Page 10, first full paragraph.

[dbauers]

godskook: i saw that clause, but i just figured it was there, because if you didnt have EGM, you would randomly choose 2 of the 3 expended ones to be granted, and 1 to be withheld.

at any rate, i think the method douglas describes seems more reasonable, because they describe it as being random inspiration, so that fits the description. otherwise its kind of random for a little bit, and then not random at all.

[Douglas]

Also, if some of your maneuvers are boosts or counters (or some of those oddball maneuvers that use a move action) you could end up using more than 1 per round. Regardless of how many you use, the whole thing resets every 3 rounds.

[Warlawk]

1. Start of combat, grant 3.
2. Use 1, grant 1, resulting in 1 expended, 3 granted, 1 withheld.
3. Use 1, grant 1, resulting in 2 expended, 3 granted, 0 withheld.
4. Use 1, none left to grant so reset - shuffle all 5 back together and grant 3, resulting in 3 granted and 2 withheld.
5. Goto 2.

This was the way our group interpreted it and has always played it, and the way it has been played by most people I have talked to.

at any rate, i think the method douglas describes seems more reasonable, because they describe it as being random inspiration, so that fits the description. otherwise its kind of random for a little bit, and then not random at all.

/Thumbsup

Also, if some of your maneuvers are boosts or counters (or some of those oddball maneuvers that use a move action) you could end up using more than 1 per round. Regardless of how many you use, the whole thing resets every 3 rounds.

When I played my dwarf tank crusader I usually tried to keep 2 boosts or counters in the mix just to give myself the opportunity to use all the maneuvers. I really liked the shield counters, but part of that is the way our DM runs monsters, as in somewhat realistically.

Tangent INC!

Spoiler

Show

Most monsters wont just take an AOO to move past you and attack the squishies. The thought process of "Oh this AOO won't hurt much" is pure metagame, intelligent beings don't want to take an axe in the back, they don't know it will only do 15 damage, they just know they are opening themselves to a potentially fatal axe in the back. That is not to say they are stupid, the monsters often use pc-like tactics to tie down the melee and then the remainder swarm the casters, or keeping skirmishers out that attack from flanks to get to casters/archers etc, but an intelligent being usually will not just take an axe in the back to get to a different target.

Would you? You and 5 friends attack me and my wizard friend. Your friends are moving to get to him and you are engaged with me. I have an axe. You probably don't *know* what the wizard can do. Probably threatening, but you aren't sure he's just going to kill you. Are you going to trust your friends to deal with him, or will you run past me and leave yourself open. I might break your ribs and lay open the flesh on your back, that's going to sever some muscles and tendons potentially harming the mobility of your arm for the rest of your life. Maybe I'll get you in the hip and leave you limping forever, or sever something in the back of your thigh, or your hamstring. Yeah, it won't kill you... but are you going to leave yourself open to that?

People want to say that many monsters are intelligent and will attack the wizard/cleric. But those people don't want to think about that fact that intelligent monsters don't want to be hurt. They feel pain, they can be crippled for life by those kind of things (Yes this isn't in the rules, but neither is claiming that any intelligent foe will target the wizard). If you want to claim that kind of thought process, you need to allow for complete thought process, not just the part that serves your point.

Tangent over!

[Keld Denar]

thats what we thought, and thats how my buddy was playing it, so i didnt bother reading it.

the exact wording is "if, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair (which becomes 3 with the extra granted maneuver feat--this is my own addition) of readied maneuvers is granted to you."

it certainly reads to me as i had described. just wondering what other people think about this "loop"

Note the emphasis of new. New meaning a new set. You reset everything you used, and everything you didn't use, and pull a new, fresh set of granted manevuers.

[Greenish]

Would you? You and 5 friends attack me and my wizard friend.

If you had a baseball bat and your friend was loading his gun, I'd take my changes with the bat.

[Warlawk]

If you had a baseball bat and your friend was loading his gun, I'd take my changes with the bat.

Again, only part of the picture.

The wizard has a gun, and full riot armor, and riot shield, and a small barricade restricting how many people can approach him. (because what wizard isn't loaded down with defenses to stop melee)

Are you going to spend the next 30 seconds trying to find a way to get to him, and get the shield out of the way, and try to struggle through your friends to get to him while completely ignoring me? 30 seconds beating on the back of your head is going to be extremely fatal to you, and likely more than one of your friends. Additionally, by staying extremely close to me, chances are better he won't be shooting the gun at you but rather at the guys in his face.

Having all the monsters just dogpile the meatshield doesn't make sense, but having most intelligent monsters just take a sword to the back of the head because they think they can probably take the hit doesn't make sense either. There area always exceptions, but most DMs seem to just treat the monsters as disposable and without any real sense of self preservation.

[Greenish]

Are you going to spend the next 30 seconds trying to find a way to get to him, and get the shield out of the way, and try to struggle through your friends to get to him while completely ignoring me? 30 seconds beating on the back of your head is going to be extremely fatal to you, and likely more than one of your friends. Additionally, by staying extremely close to me, chances are better he won't be shooting the gun at you but rather at the guys in his face.

But if I move away from you, you can only hit me once.