oWoD Vampire vs Werewolf

[alexthemad]

Ok, so my friend is starting a Vampire the Masquerade game. We were discussing character options and someone mentioned a Werewolf hunter/slayer. The GM said good luck, cause there is no way a vampire can kill a werewolf in fight. He actually said that nothing less than a 5th gen vamp can beat a werewolf in a fight. I don't know much about werewolves, but I just don't think that can be right.

After a bit of discussion, he finally changed his original statement saying that there is no way that a new vampire character, made by the book with no xp enhancements can kill a werewolf without alot of extensive preperation and planning. In a straight up mano-a-mano fight the werewolf wins everytime. Is he right? Is there that big of a power difference between the vamps and the wolves.

Can anyone provide insight on this?

[tcrudisi]

He's correct. Of course, the dice rolls could be extremely unbalanced, but yes, he's correct. However - vampires gain power more quickly than werewolves do. One elder vampire can defeat a whole pack of werewolves without breaking much of a sweat.

So basically, if you look at things on a 1 to 10 scale, vampires start off as a 1 and end as a 10. Werewolves start as a 4 and end as a 6. (Numbers are made up, but they help to get the point across).

[vrellum]

And then there are mages...


But yeah, that's basically right. Werewolves are a lot tougher in a straight on fight. At least starting werewolves are a lot tougher than starting vamps. Doesn't mean a vampire could kill one, but he would have to play smart.

[Warlawk]

I will state right up front that it's probably been over 10 years since I cracked my oWoD vamp/WW books.

Yes, he's right.

A starting vamp character has access to a lot of social and utility abilities that your average starting WW character does not. The WW however is much much more capable in combat.

A starting vamp tricked out for fighting against a support type WW character like a Thuerge or something might be a bit of a close fight, but smart money would still be on the werewolf. A combat built with an eye toward fighting would make the matchup pretty moot and likely just tear the leech apart in very short order.

As I said though, it's been 10+ years since I've really looked at those books, much less played. When I did play, the two werewolves that I played for any decent amount of time were a Get of Fenris Lupus/Ahroun and a Stargazer Kailindo Klaive duelist, so that could be slanting my view on this subject as well.

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(Sabbat like to play a game where they bring other supernatural creatures into a city, then release them and hunt them to freak out the normals)At one point my Get of Fenris was kidnapped by Sabbat and brought into a good sized city (don't recall which one). So he wakes up from being poisoned or something and they're pulling him out of the van in an empty construction zone and the 6 leeches tell him he has 5 minutes to run, then they're going to hunt and kill him. At this point, that character had probably played 50+ sessions and had a healthy chunk of XP spent. He stood there waiting for the 5 minutes to be up and just ripped all 6 to shreds on the spot. They were built using the vampire system as 12th gen vamps, since we actually had both games our storyteller didn't see any point in using watered down versions from the villain section of the werewolf book. They were intended as mooks to set up a larger conflict with the vampires of the city, and were facing off a very well developed WW, but it wasn't even much of a fight.

[Warlawk]

And then there are mages...

Our DM flinches to this day if anyone says "What are the chances..."

Yeah, a couple of us players REALLY liked the oWoD entropy 2 power that let you just outright manipulate probability and chance. Couple it with a high Arete score and you could do some pretty silly stuff.

[Semidi]

I believe there's a path out of Chaining the Beast that promotes hunting werewolves or something (it's a spin on Feral Heart and path of Beast)--could be cool for flavor (I forget the name at the moment). Anyway.

Your best bet might be a high powered (anti-material?)rifle with silver bullets, claymores with silver pellets, lots of ghouls with combat shotguns, and other traps like pitfalls with silver stakes. The main things will be to stay away from the WW and use lots of prep and cannon fodder.

I'd really suggest to the player that he start off as a non-werewolf hunter and build up to it as sort of a goal sort of like the ultimate trophy.

[The Glyphstone]

And then there are mages...


But yeah, that's basically right. Werewolves are a lot tougher in a straight on fight. At least starting werewolves are a lot tougher than starting vamps. Doesn't mean a vampire could kill one, but he would have to play smart.

Q: Who beats who in a fight, a vampire or a werewolf?
A: The Mage wins initiative and turns them both into lawn chairs.

[comicshorse]

I believe there's a path out of Chaining the Beast that promotes hunting werewolves or something (it's a spin on Feral Heart and path of Beast)--could be cool for flavor (I forget the name at the moment). Anyway.

Your best bet might be a high powered (anti-material?)rifle with silver bullets, claymores with silver pellets, lots of ghouls with combat shotguns, and other traps like pitfalls with silver stakes. The main things will be to stay away from the WW and use lots of prep and cannon fodder.

I'd really suggest to the player that he start off as a non-werewolf hunter and build up to it as sort of a goal sort of like the ultimate trophy.

Yes to this. A starting character can take a werewolf but not by going toe-to-toe with it. You want sniper rifles( preferably with silver nitrate rounds), booby-traps and every dirty trick you can think of. Ideally the werewolf should never know he's being hunted until its too late.
But yes this is very dangerous for a starting character.

[Psyx]

Err... silver nitrate is firstly a liquid, and secondly doesn't do anything special to werewolves AFAIK. It's silver that hurts werewolves, not compounds of it. Otherwise they'd be taking agg from those mirrors they always carry and stained glass windows!

I'm not sure why you'd use a liquid in a bullet anyway... just use a silver bullet!

[Simba]

Q: Who beats who in a fight, a vampire or a werewolf?
A: The Mage wins initiative and turns them both into lawn chairs.

Unless the Werewolf is very good and has the I-go-first-whatever-you-do gift (Spirit of the Fray? Maybe...). The he simply wins.

[Psyx]

Werewolves are easily enough evaded or driven off by vampires in combat: Dread Gaze and the other Presence and Dominate abilities are pretty cast-iron in getting a vampire out alive. Failing that, celerity or protean are good for escaping.

Actually killing the werewolf is a little more of a problem, though.

'A werewolf' is like saying 'a character' though. Not every werewolf is even statted for combat. Many are pretty 'non combat' in choice of gifts and abilities: Not every werewolf is a killing machine. Not every werewolf is a Get of Fenris Aroun with silver tolerance, razor claws and Brawl 3. If you happen to run into such a werewolf you are of course DEAD. But there's a lot of them that are nowhere near as fearsome.

Next up for our Vampire: Don't get ambushed. A werewolf stepping from the umbra, and spending rage for extra actions on an unprepared Vampire = dead vampire. For preference: ambush the werewolf.

You really need to do agg to kill werewolves. So that's lvl 2 Protean then... or... a silver weapon. So bung starting points into Resources and get yourself a bunch of silver ammunition or a weapon. Easily possible at start-up, especially if the character is designed to be a were-wolf hunter. I'm not sure I know many GMs who'd allow it myself, but if you can get away with it, then you've just overcome one of the major problems with dealing with werewolves: Regeneration. You can do it via Protean, but that means a Gangrel, and that means no celerity at start-up, and that means death for any combat vampire, really. Fortitude only gets you so far against agg.

Celerity goes a long way towards blunting those rage actions. It's kind of essential stuff if you're fighting in close quarters with a werewolf. Although I wouldn't recommend that approach. Standing a long way away with a magazine of silver bullets and eight similarly equipped allies, or setting off a large bomb are far safer alternatives. Although, you need to make sure that the werewolf is dead inside a combat round (which is VERY difficult with firearms) or it's going to step into the umbra, avoid the ambush, and pop out somewhere horrible.

Tl;dr:

Werewolf ambushing vampire = Dead Vampire

Vampire ambushing werewolf with a truck-full of booby trapped napalm = dead werewolf

Solo Vampire ambushing werewolf with silver bullets = Wounded werewolf that then goes into the umbra and starts looking for the soon to be dead vampire

Toe-to-toe fight with a maxxed out starting vampire with silver weapons and celerity versus Arooun werewolf or other combat-statted werewolf = dead vampire. You can't fight a sledge-hammer with a ball-peen hammer.

Toe-to-toe fight with a maxxed out starting vampire with silver weapons and celerity versus a non-combat werewolf = dead werewolf.


So yeah: You can be a werewolf hunter. You just need to either use napalm and ambushes, or convince your GM to give you silver weapons and celerity, and then pick on really weak werewolves, and make sure they die before side-stepping.

[Psyx]

Also: By MET, werewolves are big wusses.

Maxxed celerity and potence both win all ties on physical challenges, instantly rendering the werewolf's massive trait advantage pretty much moot.

[KillianHawkeye]

Err... silver nitrate is firstly a liquid, and secondly doesn't do anything special to werewolves AFAIK. It's silver that hurts werewolves, not compounds of it. Otherwise they'd be taking agg from those mirrors they always carry and stained glass windows!

I'm not sure why you'd use a liquid in a bullet anyway... just use a silver bullet!

Somebody hasn't seen Underworld.....

[Earthwalker]

This is from memory so is problably totaly wrong but the points buy recomendations for the three different OwoD books when converting to Gurps was something like.

Vampire : 150
Mage : 300
Werewolf : 450 (228 of that was for the were wolf package)

I am sure it was something like this. It should be clear to see how vampires fit into the physical powerlevel.

As people has said it can be done. Just would be tricky, and if a leech wants to make a living killing puppies he better be prepared to face a pack coming after him.

[Psyx]

Somebody hasn't seen Underworld.....

Somebody has (if only for the catsuit), but quite likes science, knows a bit about firearms, and doesn't really like either being trampled over in the hunt for entirely infeasible HIGHEXPLOSIVE FINSTABILISED MERCURYTIPPED MAGNUMSILVERNITRATE HYPERVELOCITYARMOURPIERCING GYROJETDEPLETEDAMMUNITION CASELESSWATERPROOFHEATSEEKING QUIETUSPOSIONED DRAGONBREATHROUNDS fired from .50AEdeserteagles convertedtofullyautomatic withdrummagazineslasersights silencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols.

One in each hand, obviously.



Edit: Spelled .50AEdeserteagles convertedtofullyautomaticwithdrummagazines lasersightssilencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols. wrong.

[J.Gellert]

It's possible. Don't underestimate Presence and such You can build a vampire that can kill werewolves reliably.

Now whether "reliably" is the same as "werewolf hunter" is a point of contention... It's not the same as a human deer-hunter, but, you know...

[alexthemad]

Alright, thanks. So if my buddy makes the werewolf hunter, I need to distance myself from him....got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[tcrudisi]

It's possible. Don't underestimate Presence and such You can build a vampire that can kill werewolves reliably.

Now whether "reliably" is the same as "werewolf hunter" is a point of contention... It's not the same as a human deer-hunter, but, you know...

Can a properly-built vampire stand a chance against a werewolf? Err... sure, although even non-combat werewolves are still combat-oriented.

However, can a properly-built vampire stand a chance against a pack of werewolves? No way. And werewolves do tend to travel in packs. Or, if you do manage to find one alone and kill him, you still have to deal with the pack and they will discover who killed him fairly quickly and easily ... unless you get lucky and take out the Theurge first.

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, the oWoD heirarchy of power goes (roughly) like this:

• Humans
• Hunters
• Vampires
• Wraiths
• Mages
• Changelings
• Demons
• Werewolves

Now, a well-built character can leap-frog down a notch or two, & a poorly-built character can be surpassed by the decent advancements of the guys above them, but that's the gist of it. Werewolves were undoubtedly (& appropriately) the alpha dogs of the oWoD world. Many things could put them down, but most of those were NPC entities, elder beings that had amassed a great deal of power, or large packs of lesser beings with the proper equipment. For the record, I have no experience with mummies (who does?), so I don't know where they fit in to the list.

[KillianHawkeye]

Somebody has (if only for the catsuit), but quite likes science, knows a bit about firearms, and doesn't really like either being trampled over in the hunt for entirely infeasible HIGHEXPLOSIVEFINSTABILISED MERCURYTIPPEDMAGNUMSILVERNITRATE HYPERVELOCITYARMOURPIERCINGGYROJET DEPLETEDAMMUNITIONCASELESS WATERPROOFHEATSEEKINGQUIETUSPOSIONED DRAGONBREATHROUNDS fired from .50AEdeserteaglesconverted tofullyautomaticwithdrummagazines lasersightssilencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols.

One in each hand, obviously.



Edit: Spelled .50AEdeserteaglesconvertedtofullyautomaticwithdrum magazines lasersightssilencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols. wrong.

I'm glad you're not concerned with actually getting someone to read your posts. That takes courage.

[Psyx]

In my limited experience, Bane Mummies walk in and kill everything in amusing manners.

I'd also say that by the later stages of the game it's certainly possible for combat vampires to kick seven shades out of werewolves (remember celerity is like rage in that it gives extra actions... but works for a lot longer. So a vampire who can suck down the initial burst of rage-actions has a hefty advantage in the golden action economy). But not at start-up. And as great as presence is at keeping you alive in the face of werewolves, it doesn't alone actually kill them.

[Psyx]

I'm glad you're not concerned with actually getting someone to read your posts.

I'm sure a brief skim of the line, and picking out of a couple of words gets the gist over, and immediately brings to mind a few of 'those' type of players who we all know!

[tcrudisi]

I'm sure a brief skim of the line, and picking out of a couple of words gets the gist over, and immediately brings to mind a few of 'those' type of players who we all know!

Perhaps, but I'm sure a lot of people read it like I did: "Oh look, no spaces. Pass." That's why I found it amusing that KHE posted exactly what I was thinking.

[Sir Swindle89]

Somebody has (if only for the catsuit), but quite likes science, knows a bit about firearms, and doesn't really like either being trampled over in the hunt for entirely infeasible HIGHEXPLOSIVE FINSTABILISEDMERCURYTIPPEDMAGNUMSILVERNITRATE HYPERVELOCITY ARMOURPIERCINGGYROJETDEPLETED AMMUNITIONCASELESSWATERPROOFHEATSEEKING QUIETUSPOSIONEDDRAGONBREATHROUNDS fired from .50AEdeserteagles convertedtofullyautomaticwithdrummagazines lasersightssilencers underbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothrough aircraftsecuritymachinepistols.

One in each hand, obviously.



Edit: Spelled .50AEdeserteaglesconvertedtofully automaticwithdrummagazineslasersights silencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchersand ceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritymach inepistols. wrong.

So yay your still not dealing aggrevated damage. Underworld has no bearing on WoD. WoD (not sure about old) specifically points out that compounds and even silver plated things don't deal aggravated to werewolves.

[Psyx]

So yay your still not dealing aggrevated damage. Underworld has no bearing on WoD. WoD (not sure about old) specifically points out that compounds and even silver plated things don't deal aggravated to werewolves.

Eh? Yes, I know. That was my point.

If you want to hurt a werewolf with bullets, then make some proper solid silver bullets. It's far easier (ie can be done at home with a home-loading kit.), far more reliable and ballistically superior (because bullets with liquids in them aren't so great), and it actually works and does agg.

[Warlawk]

Yeah, the oWoD heirarchy of power goes (roughly) like this:

• Humans
• Hunters
• Vampires
• Wraiths
• Mages
• Changelings
• Demons
• Werewolves

Now, a well-built character can leap-frog down a notch or two, & a poorly-built character can be surpassed by the decent advancements of the guys above them, but that's the gist of it. Werewolves were undoubtedly (& appropriately) the alpha dogs of the oWoD world. Many things could put them down, but most of those were NPC entities, elder beings that had amassed a great deal of power, or large packs of lesser beings with the proper equipment. For the record, I have no experience with mummies (who does?), so I don't know where they fit in to the list.

Bearing in mind that it's been a long while since I cracked these books open...

The fact that Mages are in the middle of your list immediately makes me think twice. As someone posted above:

The mage wins initiative (quite possibly by making time his bitch) and turns all the others into lawn chairs. Almost any mage regardless of which sphere he focused on should have plenty of tricks that aren't based on damage and will outright take his opponent out of the fight. Paradox might make him regret it afterward, but it doesn't mean he can't do it.

[comicshorse]

Err... silver nitrate is firstly a liquid, and secondly doesn't do anything special to werewolves AFAIK. It's silver that hurts werewolves, not compounds of it. Otherwise they'd be taking agg from those mirrors they always carry and stained glass windows!

I'm not sure why you'd use a liquid in a bullet anyway... just use a silver bullet!

Well I'm only going on the Freak Legion book here but Pentex equipped their anti-werewolf teams with these. The idea presumably being that they were a variant of explosive bullets which both exploded and dealt aggravated damage.
I have no idea how viable these really are I'm only going on what was in the White Wolf book
And yes by the rules in the book they dealt Aggravated damage

[Psyx]

Which is odd, because Silver Nitrate isn't explosive...

[LibraryOgre]

It's possible, provided you don't consider a silver dagger to be horribly exotic. I did it with a FoB 14th Gen Brujah; the only help he got was a Lasombra magician making him a silver dagger.

The key bits of the build were a Dot in Celerity, two Dots in Potence, and four dots in Melee, with a specialty in knives. Physical should be primary stats, though you could pull it off with secondary.

Vampire Companion introduced a rule allowing you to make multiple strikes with a knife on a single action; you just had to split your dice pool. With Celerity 1, you can take two actions in a round. Four attacks with a silver dagger, with 2 potence (automatic strength successes = automatic damage) means about 8 damage successes that the werewolf cannot soak because it comes from silver.

Provided the vampire has surprise, or a way of surviving the first attack with his dice pools mostly intact, he can tear up a werewolf in short order.

If I were building a werewolf killer vampire, I'd have Primary Physical and Skills, Secondary Mental and Talents, Tertiary Mental and Knowledges. Brujah would be a good Clan, as would Nosferatu (there may be other good ones, but I'm working from memory). You're going to want a fair amount of Strength and Dexterity, Melee, Stealth and Dodge. Firearms is also nice, but then you'll want Craft skills to make your silver bullets, and it takes less advantage of Potence. Good disciplines are going to be Fortitude (allowing you a bit of soak), Celerity (allowing you to take multiple actions), Obfuscate (allowing you to hide) and potence (allowing high damage).

Make no mistake: You WILL die. Painfully. But, it will be "eventually", rather than "immediately".

[Zeta Kai]

Bearing in mind that it's been a long while since I cracked these books open...

The fact that Mages are in the middle of your list immediately makes me think twice. As someone posted above:

The mage wins initiative (quite possibly by making time his bitch) and turns all the others into lawn chairs. Almost any mage regardless of which sphere he focused on should have plenty of tricks that aren't based on damage and will outright take his opponent out of the fight. Paradox might make him regret it afterward, but it doesn't mean he can't do it.

In my experience, it wasn't hard for WW to get the drop on a mage & turn him into salsa. The same could not always be said for the reverse scenario.