how special is 'too special'? (character backgrounds)

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

as many of you are probably getting sick of hearing, I'm creating an undead character,

specifically, a human knight/cleric with the bone template.

and within the next few days I intend to write the backstory for this character.

now in life, the character didn't worship wee jas (but he does now, being an undead abomination)

so part of the backstory is his transition as a worshipper..

I was curious, is it 'too much' to have an avatar of wee jas (or wee jas herself) appear in his backstory to inform him that she is the only remaining god who will accept his worship?

now for the record, this will have NO in game effect (unless the DM does something with it, which I doubt) I just thought it'd be kinda neat and different.

so is this "too" special? for a starting out backstory? the character will be somewhere between level 3 and 5 when I start playing him.

[Katana_Geldar]

With backstory, what I think is best is have a few non-specific pointers and then talk to the DM to see how they work. The more detailed you are with it, the less he can work with you to put you in the story.

Have a few suggestions and be prepared to compromise.

[Greenish]

now in life, the character didn't worship wee jas (but he does now, being an undead abomination)

Major deities like Wee Jas would probably delegate such errants to their servants, but if the DM ok's an actual avatar it'll work too.

[Edit]: In regards to your backstory, how about if it wasn't a divine apparition at all? Your character was brought to unlife unwillingly by a necromancer whom you then killed (I gathered from your other posts). What if a Knight Vindicator (or something the like) of Wee Jas was tracking the necromancer too (since Jasites take dim view on reanimating unwilling targets), and you ran into him?

[bloodtide]

That would be 'too special' for me.

I'd like to think that a god has better things to do then personally visit every person when needed.

And story wise it's always better to go with less.

In your case it could have been an old cleric of Wee(aka your Obi One) who told you the plot/story point, right before he died.

And I'd be fine with the 'little touch', the things I think most gods would do. Such as you drop a coin and it rolls over to the door of the temple of Wee, or you get a dream or vision. Your not 100% sure if it was real or not...but you think it is...

[JonRG]

Maybe WJ just sent you a vision? Not much expenditure on her part, can have whoever the heck you want appear in it, and the other players won't get too jealous over anything that could *also* be caused by too much peyote.

[kyoryu]

I was curious, is it 'too much' to have an avatar of wee jas (or wee jas herself) appear in his backstory to inform him that she is the only remaining god who will accept his worship?

Depends on the game and the style of game. Talk to your DM. It would be waaaaaay too special for a game I ran, but might be right in line for another group.

(Of course, I'm one of those jerk DMs that think characters become special by what they do, rather than starting out special)

[Mikeavelli]

what's wrong with the good old fashioned "Prophetic dream" or "Touched by divine knowledge?" An Avatar physically manifesting to tell someone something is a world-altering event with far-reaching consequences for the entire church of the diety being worshipped.

Visions, Dreams, and portents on the other hand are the bread and butter of this sort of thing. If you're undead, you probably don't sleep or dream at all, but divinities have a way of being able to ignore or override pesky little things like that. Perhaps it happened in the moment you were being turned undead.

[SaintRidley]

You could even go with either of these:

Trying in vain to get a god to sponsor you, failing until you raise your head in supplication to Wee Jas, the last deity on your list (because you were silly and ordered it alphabetically).

or

Wee Jas sensing opportunity and sponsoring your spellcasting without telling you, so that you simply cast without knowing that your patron has changed. It becomes obvious something has changed when you try to cast one of your prepared domain spells and a different spell comes out, from one of the new domains she's granted you.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

Honestly, the only possible answer here is, "ask your DM." Some DMs are fine with parties made up of the sons of gods and demons, cursed at birth and blessed by a choir of angels on the day they became an adult, and others want ordinary people who become extraordinary through their in-game adventures. Often it varies campaign by campaign. My current campaign has the son of a great general who controlled huge swaths of the world before being stopped by the power of Pelor himself, a mad warlock who made a pact with a powerful fey entity after his father was slain by an epic wizard, and an elf who is essentially a sleeper-cell for a group of drow, and the keystone for a drow invasion lead by Lolth herself.

In my next campaign, the same players will be playing a blacksmith, a tavern owner, and a musician.

[Escheton]

BEHOLD THE METATRON - HERALD OF THE ALMIGHTY AND VOICE OF THE ONE TRUE GOD!

and take it from there...

[true_shinken]

I think it's 'too special'. An avatar? Gee. Make it a prophet or something.

[LibraryOgre]

An Avatar is a bit much, IMO. It's a bit more likely that you'd have a vision or a dream... still sent by Wee Jas, but more like an e-mail than a personal visit.

EDIT: Unless we're talking OMG high level here. If you're a world-level mover and shaker (15 and above), then Wee Jas may have put in a personal appearance.

[big teej]

great replies all around, all were very helpful, but a few stuck out to me as needing responses (that said, EVERY response was very helpful, Teej is happeh)

With backstory, what I think is best is have a few non-specific pointers and then talk to the DM to see how they work. The more detailed you are with it, the less he can work with you to put you in the story.

Have a few suggestions and be prepared to compromise.

I wasn't really that concerned with him working it in...but to be fair, I hadn't thought about that, and I have to get him to okay the whole "being dead" thing to begin with, so I'll make sure to run that by him as well.

Visions, Dreams, and portents on the other hand are the bread and butter of this sort of thing. If you're undead, you probably don't sleep or dream at all, but divinities have a way of being able to ignore or override pesky little things like that. Perhaps it happened in the moment you were being turned undead.

I actually really like this idea, as it fits with a bit of the concept I have in mind.

the backstory was going to basically be Vaul's retelling of his death. followed by his experiences in celestia, but after mere moments their his previous diety (I'm thinking I'm going to go with heironious) informs him (almost certainly by proxy, but who knows) that 'his work is not yet finished' and tell him that he must sleep for awhile.

so he sleeps
"moments" (several decades) later
he wakes up, but before he does, he could recieve the message from wee jas.

then BOOM back in the real world, gut the necromancer with my own two claws, put on my armour, and take up a quest to exterminate every last necromancer from the material plane.



so to be honest, I really like this idea the best, and this will likely be what I run by the DM....

time to go write a snippet for Lady Moreta's thread.

[Zeofar]

I'd just like to add that you should talk to your DM about this regardless simply because the implications of the message, however one receives it.

As far as I recall, you intend your character to be a Lawful Good Knight/Cleric, and therefore must be within one step of the deity you worship. However, being undead does not explicitly bar one from worship of Heironeous or St. Cuthbert (Though Pelor is obviously out), and, furthermore, your mission seems more in line with Heironeous' virtues of honor, justice and combat and St. Cutbert's dogma of vengeance and retribution than Wee Jas' practice of organized, lawful necromancy (and in fact in direct opposition to it if you intend to kill -all- necromancers, not simply those who create undead in an irregular manner).

Furthermore, the "overcoming adversity" angle of Heironeous mentioned in Deities and Demigods only further aligns a now-undead-but-still-good knight with him. Why St. Cuthbert works doesn't need any further explanation, and the greatest argument against following him would be that you intend to deceive other people with regard to your actual nature. You could say that Wee Jas lied to you or somehow deceived you, but that doesn't really seem like the act of a Lawful god and would make more sense coming from Vecna trying using you as a pawn (and turn you evil, which makes sense coming from Vecna) and making an exception with regard to your alignment for that purpose.

To summarize, the fact is that your interpretation of what gods may be still open to your worship may not line up with your Dm's interpretation, and having a direct divine message coming to you in any manner makes the situation troublesome (and moreso if the DM treats deities outside core as existing, since there are more undead-centric ones out there if I recall correctly). I would advise that you instead make it personal (your character does not want to make his presence known to Heironeous in his current disgraceful form) or simply human error (Your character simply assumes that Heironeous will not accept his worship, you show yourself to a cleric of Heironeous in search of advice and but instead are chased off/fought, or a follower of Wee Jas/the necromancer that created you told you that you would not be accepted by Heironeous). That way, you won't have to worry about stretching the DM's view of the world at all, since it is hardly unlikely that one of the above might happen.

[Rixx]

Whatever you do, clear all important details of your backstory with the GM first. Springing specialness on the GM is the worst thing you can do.

[big teej]

I'd just like to add that you should talk to your DM about this regardless simply because the implications of the message, however one receives it.

.

I intend to

As far as I recall, you intend your character to be a Lawful Good Knight/Cleric, and therefore must be within one step of the deity you worship. However, being undead does not explicitly bar one from worship of Heironeous or St. Cuthbert (Though Pelor is obviously out), and, furthermore, your mission seems more in line with Heironeous' virtues of honor, justice and combat and St. Cutbert's dogma of vengeance and retribution than Wee Jas' practice of organized, lawful necromancy (and in fact in direct opposition to it if you intend to kill -all- necromancers, not simply those who create undead in an irregular manner).

alignment - you are correct, Vaul is Lawful Good
barring worship - I was unaware of this, I figured the whole 'being undead' thing would cause some deities to refuse my worship (apparently a much greater list than would be accurate)
heironious, st. cuthbert, and wee jas - I agree, I suppose the general goal would be much more in line with the former 2, and I must have misremembered the dogma of the latter (don't have my dieties and demigods in front of me)
so that too would work, and that would only necessitate a minor change in what I have so far.

I
To summarize, the fact is that your interpretation of what gods may be still open to your worship may not line up with your Dm's interpretation, and having a direct divine message coming to you in any manner makes the situation troublesome (and moreso if the DM treats deities outside core as existing, since there are more undead-centric ones out there if I recall correctly). I would advise that you instead make it personal (your character does not want to make his presence known to Heironeous in his current disgraceful form) or simply human error (Your character simply assumes that Heironeous will not accept his worship, you show yourself to a cleric of Heironeous in search of advice and but instead are chased off/fought, or a follower of Wee Jas/the necromancer that created you told you that you would not be accepted by Heironeous). That way, you won't have to worry about stretching the DM's view of the world at all, since it is hardly unlikely that one of the above might happen.

player vs dm interpretation - a valid point, however, I feel the DM will lean in my direction, as he's.... new, and I'm the group's main DM (however, the point is valid, and I'll make sure he's aware of the fact that he's in charge)
dieties outside core - anything not in books we have in hardcopy is out of bounds (we have dieties and demigods, + the BOVD + the DMG + races of stone, I think thats everything with dieties)

could you elaborate on what you mean about 'hiding his form' from heironious? (for the record, I'll never be able to spell that name right, I apologize )



last. a question.
wee jas is Lawful Neutral correct?
sooo.... wouldn't she be IN favor of killing necromancers of say... Nerull?
you know, anyone using necromancy in the CE variety, as opposed to NE or something.

[hamishspence]

Power of Faerun (FR 3.5 splatbook) has rules for clerics being able to have "dramatic divine apparitions"

So, you can have a "message from deity" appear, without actually being high level.

On what deity to choose- Tyr in Faerun (fairly similar to both Hieroneous and St Cuthbert) has been known to transform those of his followers who failed in life, into undead, granting them a second chance in death.

Pool of Radiance, a FR novel, has as one of the party members, a LG undead ex-paladin.

On Wee Jas- in Dragon Magazine, which goes into a lot of detail on her and her church, she dislikes the creation of sentient undead, and also dislikes it when members of her own people (the Suel) are made into mindless undead.

The Greyhawk Wiki covers Wee Jas in a little more detail than Deities and Demigods:

Wee Jas

[Strawberries]

I was going to say "just ask your DM", but it seems people already got that answer covered.
Another thing to consider is "ask your fellow players, too". What are the others thinking of playing? Could their characters be in conflict with yours? If so, are you all alright with inter party conflict? If not, can something in your or their background be adjusted so as to minimize this possible conflict? The DM has the final say, but the other players are important, too. Those are the people you're going to play with, after all.

Depends on the game and the style of game. Talk to your DM. It would be waaaaaay too special for a game I ran, but might be right in line for another group.

(Of course, I'm one of those jerk DMs that think characters become special by what they do, rather than starting out special)

It seems you're the DM for me.
I recently came to the sad realization that I have an hard time making "special" characters. Mine are all ordinary people trying to go through life as best as they can. Yes, even my dryad. I don't know why, but it's a pattern with me.

[hamishspence]

There's also a class below Avatars in power- Aspects. These are not directly connected to their deity- what an Aspect witnesses is not communicated back to the deity, and so on. They're like a much weaker version of it.

They were introduced in Miniatures Handbook- and tend to be middle-of-the-range in Challenge rating- 8-12, as I recall, is typical.

An encounter with an Aspect, could work as what gave him the idea to start following Wee Jas, if you go with that.

[Zeofar]

could you elaborate on what you mean about 'hiding his form' from heironious?

Oh, that. It basically presumes that you're playing your character in such a way that he is not merely hiding himself in his armor for convenience, but because he sees his existence as a sub-human undead shameful and dishonorable. By that same note, although he cannot literally hide himself from view of Heironeous, he does not want to ask his former god for divine aid in his current form because he does not want to mar (in his eyes) his past worship of the god with the current aberrant existence, because he does not want to shame himself by willingly drawing attention to his state(being that Heironeous would automaticaly be aware that he was undead), or because he feels that even giving aid to such an abomination would lower Heironeous.

last. a question.
wee jas is Lawful Neutral correct?
sooo.... wouldn't she be IN favor of killing necromancers of say... Nerull?
you know, anyone using necromancy in the CE variety, as opposed to NE or something.

Yes, of course. But I simply mentioned it because you said that your character wanted to eradicate "every last necromancer from the material plane." Wee Jas would in fact be in favor of killing or punishing and all necromancers that created undead in an illegal manner (against local laws, against the will of the original body's owner, etc.) as well as their creations regardless of which god they follow, but certainly not a blanket destruction of necromancers, one of her greatest groups of followers.

[valadil]

That's up to your GM. I'd allow it, unless I had specific plans already in motion for Wee Jas. If they don't allow it, downgrade to message from a servant, then to vision, then to dream, etc. I actually kind of like the idea of it being a dream that you believe in but could later doubt.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, I'd probably suggest you go with something like a vision or a visitation by a lesser aspect or so, but the best way probably is to not present it as fact.

As Far As You Know, you found yourself on a high mountaintop, at night, the world beneath you lost in clouds and mist. Wee Jas came and spoke to you upon the mountaintop, and yada yada yada. It's a touch of epic, but could just as easily have been the feverish imagination of a dying, or undying man or anything in between. Gives the DM stuff to play with if he wants to, without forcing him, and a little ambiguity is always good.

[Zeofar]

I also agree that if you want to follow Wee Jas that a somewhat unclear dream/vision would be a good route. That way, it really isn't possible to say "that isn't true!" because it doesn't have to be. It puts the power in the DM's hands while still letting you get what you want.

[big teej]

these are all excellent and very helpful answers...

unfortunately, my stomach is telling me it is time to eat, so I will have to respond to them later.

yay helpful answers!



EDIT:
greyhawk wiki

She is close to all lawful deities, for she favors Law above all things, and will work with deities such as Heironeous and Hextor as the need arises. Demons and other chaotic beings generally despise her for this reason, which makes her on-again, off-again romance with Norebo that much more unusual. She can summon lawful undead or dragons to do her will.

-emphasis added-

would it be to 'out there' an idea for heironious to 'hand off' my character to wee jas for the duration of his .... unlife?

because then I could simply cut out the whole 'avatar' thing and downplay it all the way to a vision I recieve somewhere between dying and undying.

is there a precedent for such a thing?

for the record, I very likely have a skewed view of how the dieties of DnD interact with their worshippers due to my rather limited reading of novels within dnd, but extensive reading on the outside.
for example, in David Eddings' writings, the gods are VERY close to their subjects (for the most part)
whilst in say... warhammer, the gods are incredibly distant (with the possible exception of the Chaos Gods)

[hamishspence]

In Faerun, there is precedent- In Champions of Valor, one of the characters serves one deity (Helm) but his "true patron" is another deity (Gorm Gulthyn)- who has sanctioned this.

Drizzt in The Crystal Shard introduces himself as "a ranger humbly serving Gwaeron Windstrom, hero of the goddess Mielikki"

Gwaeron is a minor deity- and Drizzt's patron in Sojourn is Mielikki. So maybe, for a short period, he was serving Gwaeron on Mielikki's behalf?

[Uncle Casw]

would it be to 'out there' an idea for heironious to 'hand off' my character to wee jas for the duration of his .... unlife?

I guess Heironious (sp?) would cut out any undead from the flock of his faithfuls. Tell me again, why the necromancer failed to bind you to his will?

And a note on the extreme lawfulness of Wee Jas: as far i know, unless you have some some extremely important mission that only you on earth (Oerth? ) can accomplish she would like to see you reduced to a bunch of ashes

[Tryll]

I find the idea of starting out "undead" to be strange all by itself. Characters in my game all have to begin as living creatures - if they want to die, there will be plenty of in-game opportunities... <evil grin>

[LibraryOgre]

I find the idea of starting out "undead" to be strange all by itself. Characters in my game all have to begin as living creatures - if they want to die, there will be plenty of in-game opportunities... <evil grin>

I don't find starting as undead to be nearly as weird as venerable creatures that are 1st level adventurers.

[comicshorse]

If you're G.M. is fine with it, then its fine

[kyoryu]

I don't find starting as undead to be nearly as weird as venerable creatures that are 1st level adventurers.

Sometimes I think the weirdest character of all, in terms of the least likely to be encountered, is the human fighter.