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  1. - Top - End - #361
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Rumel's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    Honestly, but this is just me, I'd make Lich a base class and Demi-Lich be a prestige class. Granted, its been a while since I've read the Epic Level Handbook, but isn't the Demi-Lich template only applicable to Liches and Dracoliches?

    EDIT: Just read the post above. I'd let Liches, Dracoliches, and Illithiliches join, only.
    One last thing... What should the ability scores be... +1 to all (Wis, Int and Cha) every level, just Cha, alternating or two a level?

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    I just can't win with how I phrase the grell's bite attack, can I? At least you understood what it meant.

    Blindsight: A first-level psicrystal gets something approaching this to 40'. It felt somewhat crippling to reduce it much further, since it's already quite weak to ranged attacks, not having sight. Giving a bit of blindsense could help make up for that, though. Also, probably a good idea to have blindsight that extends as far as you can reach. For a first-level grell with a whip, they can make semi-ranged attacks to within 20', so it would be odd if they couldn't 'see' that far.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    I dunno. I've never actually participated in this thread before, so don't know the power level that is needed. Sorry I can't be much help.
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Kobold

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I dunno. I've never actually participated in this thread before, so don't know the power level that is needed. Sorry I can't be much help.
    Swordsage would probably be a good model.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Lich is a template, therefore it's a prestige class. Demilich is a template, therefore it's a prestige class. Simple.

    Demilich should be as widely accessible as possible, but do consider the existing requirement that you are a Lich, so requite it to have at least 1 level in the Lich class, along with all the other shpiel (X HD minimum, ability to craft the phylacteries etc) - in a similar way to the Ulitharid requires at least one level in the Illithid class.

    Moar critique on moar things to come later, when I'm less dead.
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Right, i've specified how Swarmshifting works. I'm still not making a custmizable swarm feature, because quite frankly, I don't want to. It's too much work for a 1 level PRC and is rife with balance problems. Therefore, either someone suggests a list of acceptable forms to give it or I leave it as it is.

    DemiLich - Can/Should Dry Liches qualify?

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Daemon

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Oh for crying out loud........you expect everyone who uses this class to be a Munchkin.
    It's unreasonable to be expecting every player to go out of his way to break the game, but it's also unreasonable to be expecting every player to go out of his way not to. Part of what a homebrewer does is walk on those eggshells so the player doesn't have to.

  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Then I don't mind if someone says "A good list of acceptable forms would be this, Gecko". However, i'm not doing some exaustive customizable list where you can build your own swarm, because that's just taking the gecko.

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    It's unreasonable to be expecting every player to go out of his way to break the game, but it's also unreasonable to be expecting every player to go out of his way not to. Part of what a homebrewer does is walk on those eggshells so the player doesn't have to.
    Amen.
    If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Nobody ever said making a complex PrC monster class would be easy.
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  10. - Top - End - #370
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    ...........that's the point. It's not supposed to be complex. If it started complex, fine. But it never started complex, and i'm not making it complex.

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Lammasu


    Class:
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    Hit Dice: d6
    {table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
    1|+0|+2|+0|+0|Lammasu Body, Holy Shield
    2|+1|+3|+0|+0|Gatekeeper, Rake, +1 Str
    3|+2|+3|+1|+1|Divine Connection
    4|+3|+4|+1|+1|Flight, Lammasu Magic
    5|+3|+4|+1|+1|Growth, Healing Hands
    6|+4|+5|+2|+2|Pounce, +1 Wis
    7|+5|+5|+2|+2|Shining Light
    8|+6/+1|+6|+2|+2|Greater Lamassu Magic[/table]
    Skill Points: 4+Int Mod (x4 at first level) Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot

    Proficiencies: Lammasu are proficient with their own natural weapons, no armour & no shields.

    Class Features:

    Lammasu Body (Ex): At first level the Lammasu loses all racial traits and features, and gains the Traits of a Magical Beast.
    - It is a Medium Magical Beast with a base land speed of 30ft.
    - It has two primary claw attacks that deal 1d4+Str damage each and a secondary bite attack that deals 1d6+1/2 Str damage.
    - Lammasu are capable of the fine manipulation necessary for spellcasting (but not wielding conventional weapons) and Lammasu levels stack with Cleric levels for spell progression & Caster Level, and Lammasu levels that advance spellcasting (3HD and onwards) may count as Cleric levels for the purpose of qualifying for PrCs.
    - It gains a Natural Armour bonus equal to it's Con Mod.
    - Though it has wings they cannot yet sustain flight, though they do grant it a +4 racial bonus on jump checks.

    Holy Shield (Su): The Lammasu may benefit from a Protection from Evil effect for 1 minute/HD each day. This effect must last for a minimum of 1 minute each time it is activated, but once activated it may be deactivated with a free action. At 10HD this becomes a permanent effect.

    Gatekeeper (Su): The Lammasu have a true legacy as guardians of homes and cities. 1/HD times each day they may designate a doorway, gate or archway as under it's protection. This effect lasts for 1 hour (or until it is dismissed as a free action) and anything attempting to pass through it must make a Will Save (DC 10+1/2HD+Wis Mod) or be unable to pass through it.
    This doesn't prevent things from going over, under or around it, nor does it stop the protected area from being destroyed.

    Rake (Ex): At third level the Lammasu gains the Rake ability.

    A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

    A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

    Divine Connection (Ex): Despite not being Outsiders, Lammasu have an innate connection to the Upper Planes. From 3rd Level onwards the Lammasu may cast spells as a Cleric of their Lammasu Level-2, choosing their 2 Domains from the following: Good, Healing, Knowledge & Law. They do not gain any other Cleric abilities such as Turn Undead, nor do they gain the special powers of their chosen Domains unless they take level sin the actual Cleric class later.

    Flight (Ex): At fourth level the Lammasu's wings become strong enough to sustain flight. It gains a Fly speed of 30ft with average manoeuvrability. Their fly speed increases to 60ft at 12HD.

    Lammasu Magic (Sp): From third level the Lammasu may duplicate an Invisibility spell 1/day for every 4HD it has.

    Growth (Ex): At fifth level the Lammasu grows to Large size, its claws and bite damage increase one step and it gains a +1 bonus to it's natural armour bonus.

    Healing Hands (Ex): Whenever a Lammasu casts a spell that cures hit point damage, it adds its Charisma modifier to the amount of damage healed. For instance, if a 5HD Lammasu with an 18 Charisma casts cure light wounds, it cures 1d8+3 points of damage normally, plus an additional 4 points of damage due to its Charisma bonus.

    Pounce (Ex): From sixth level, if a lammasu charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

    Shining Light (Su): At seventh level the Lammasu's Protection From Evil effect extends outwards, now functioning as a Magic Circle Against Evil.
    As an added boon, 1/5HD each day the Lammasu may duplicate a Turn Undead effect within the range of this power (using your HD in place of Cleric level), except undead with 1/2 your HD + your Cha Mod or less are destroyed instead of just those with 1/2 your HD. This power may not be used for any other effect besides a Turn Undead action such as powering Divine Feats etc.

    Greater Lammasu Magic (Sp): At 8th Level the Lammasu's spell-like abilities grow stronger. They're Invisibility SLA may now also duplicate Greater Invisibility if they wish (though they are still limited by the same amount of uses). They may also now use Dimension Door 1/day for each 6HD it has.


    Comments:
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    Ok, thoughts?

    Tried to make the G. Protector worth losing the cleric casting, not sure if I succeeded tbh. Needs some interesting abilities but couldn't think of any (as does the Lammasu, but didn't want to put anything extra in since it gets Cleric casting).
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2010-12-31 at 12:20 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Split them into seperate posts please, K-B.
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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Golden Protector


    Class:
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    Pre-Reqs:
    Class: Lammasu 4
    Skill: Diplomacy 4 ranks, Know (Arcana) 4, Know (Religion) 4 ranks
    Alignment: Lawful Good

    Hit Dice: d10
    {table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
    1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Golden Body, Breath Weapon, +1 Con
    2|+2|+3|+0|+0|Outsider Skin, Resist the Elements, White Light
    3|+3|+3|+1|+1|Dragon's Blood, Superior Protector
    4|+4|+4|+1|+1|Dragon's Wings, Smite, +1 Cha
    5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Supreme Protector[/table]

    Class Features:

    Golden Body: By taking the 1st level of this class the Lammasu dedicates itself to the cause of righteousness. As the sun rises the day after it chooses to take this first level the dawn light transforms it forever into a Golden Protector; the high kings of Lammasu kind.

    It loses it's former racial traits and features and gains the traits of both the Dragon & Outsider types shown below.
    Spoiler
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    Darkvision 60ft.
    Low Light Vision.
    Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

    It is native to Celestia and gains the Extraplanar subtype when elsewhere. It also gains the Fire subtype.

    At all times it is treated as having whichever of those two types is most beneficial to it at the time (eg. when subject to a banishment spell or a Bane/Favoured Enemy effect), though it's Extraplanar/Native & Fire subtypes always remains. This means that when killed the Golden Protector may consider itself a Dragon, meaning it can be resurrected as normal.

    - When it enters this class it's claw & bite attacks gained from Lammasu levels increase their damage by one step.[/INDENT]
    - It gains a Natural Armour bonus equal to it's Con Mod (this overlaps with other similar bonuses).
    - (If it doesn't already have a natural mode of flight) It has wings that cannot yet sustain flight, though they do grant it a +4 bonus on jump checks.

    It also gains a +2 racial bonus on spot checks.

    Golden Protector levels 2-5 advance spellcasting gained by the Divine Connection Lammasu ability. Levels 1 does not advance any spellcasting.

    Breath Weapon (Su): Every 1d4 rounds the Protector may unleash a cone of flame from it's mouth. This cone is 5ft+5ft/HD long, except Golden Protector levels count as a 10ft increase instead of 5ft. It deals 1d6 points of fire damage/2HD, with a Reflex Save for 1/2 damage (10+Con Mod+1/2 HD+Golden Protector level).

    Outsider Skin (Ex): At second level the Protector becomes much tougher and harder to kill. It gains Damage Reduction equal to 1/2HD overcome by Magic & Evil weapons.

    Resist the Elements (Ex): At second level the Protector gains resistance to either Acid, Cold or Electricity (player's choice) equal to 1/2 its HD.
    At third and fourth level it gains another resistance from the remaining choices on the above list.
    Once made these choices cannot be changed.

    White Light (Su): The Protector may use a Dayight effect (as the spell) at will. It also mocks those that live in the dark; Drow, Vampires, and any other creatures that are weakened or damaged by light take a -2 penalty to all d20 rolls while within 5ft/HD of the Protector.

    Dragon's Blood (Ex): At third level the Protector develops a strong protection from magic. It gains Spell Resistance 11+HD.

    Dragon's Wings (Ex): Either the Protector's fly speed increases by 30ft or it's manoeuvrability increases one step (eg. from Average to Good). If it could not yet fly it gains a fly speed of 30ft (Average).

    Superior Protection (Sp): 1/day for each HD it has the Protector may use Shield Other as an SLA. It is also always on the lookout for damage and can no longer flanked.

    Smite (Su): From 4th level the Protector may suffuse a weapon it uses with immense energy 1/6 rounds. Activating this power is a free action and may only be used on a creature that opposes the Protector's alignment on at least one aspect. It grants a bonus on attack rolls equal to it's Cha Mod & a bonus to damage equal to it's HD.

    Supreme Protector (Ex): At fifth Level the Protector becomes a sovereign even amongst it's peers.

    From now on, 1/2 of the Protector's Breath Weapon damage is pure divine energy, meaning it is not resisted by any means short of a Divine Salient Ability.
    It's Smite ability is now usable 1/5 rounds and may be applied to all natural attacks in a full attack or charge.

    It may also 1/day call on the aid of Gold Dragons. As a Full round action it may summon between 1 & 5 Gold Dragons, whose total combined HD may not be greater than your HD-1. They remain for 1 minute/Protector's HD and serve the Protector to the best of their abilities, though obviously they will not act against their alignment.

    Because there are not that many Gold Dragons in the world, each time you call them they are the same individual dragons (thus they should have names at the very least). If a Dragon is killed whilst in your service you lose the amount of HD they had from your summoning supply for 1 week.


    Adaptation:
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    DMs are encouraged to let non L/G characters may take this class, a single alignment was just use for ease of reading

    If this is the case then the player may call a different type of Chromatic or Metallic Dragon to summon that shares one aspect of their alignment, and gains their energy based breath weapon (acid, cold, electricity or fire) instead. It is also native to the Outer Plane that matches it's alignment.

    If the character is Neutral on the Good/Evil axis then their ritual completes at midday and the class is renamed Steel Guardian. If they are Evil then the ritual completes at midnight and it is renamed Obsidian Warder.


    Comments:
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    Ok, thoughts?

    Tried to make the G. Protector worth losing the cleric casting, not sure if I succeeded tbh. Needs some interesting abilities but couldn't think of any.

    The summoning Dragons thing was the one thing I could come up with. Using the same dragons each time is (I hope) a nice way to set up the occassional plot hook, as well as giving the player a connection to them and see them as more than cannon fodder.
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2011-01-12 at 04:49 AM.
    Piratebold-Bard by Elder Tsofu | Backer #121 of the Giantitp Kickstarter | My homebrew
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    TheGeckoKing's Avatar

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    Ooooooo. Shiny Shiny flying lions. I'll have to look at them tomorrow, however. Busy debating on what to do with Pandorym's Warp Jump.

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I dunno. I've never actually participated in this thread before, so don't know the power level that is needed. Sorry I can't be much help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajhera View Post
    Swordsage would probably be a good model.
    This. We're striving for around Tier 2-3 in balance. Not at the level of wizard, druid, erudite, archivist, artificer or cleric. More in the realm of Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard or Swordsage.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoKing
    Oh for crying out loud........you expect everyone who uses this class to be a Munchkin. Fine. I'll go and try to give it scaling abilities, but now it's gonna take me near an eternity to do it because i've also got Pandorym to do.
    What I was talking about wasn't even munchkinism. It was just using a class feature with intelligence. Take one form for fast healing to get to 100% health after every encounter without using resources, take another for fire immunity, take another to burrow under an enemy's skin and then recorporeate to your non-swarm form to instagib your enemy, use another form (centipede) to inflict poison, then switch to another (spider?) to inflict a different poison. It's an insanely versatile ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoKing
    ...........that's the point. It's not supposed to be complex. If it started complex, fine. But it never started complex, and i'm not making it complex.
    Actually, you did. You took a template that lets an undead adopt a single swarm form, and altered it so the undead in question could adopt any swarm form (with a reasonable but mild CR restriction). So you're forced to not just account for the balance of the class, but the balance of every creature your class can now turn into. And that's expounded by the fact that swarms are less of a combat creature and more of a "how are you going to deal with this" conundrum a DM throws at his/her PCs. Your swarmshifter turns the tables and puts the DM in an ugly spot where they're the one having to find interesting answers to everything you're now able to throw at them... and DMs are already busy, frazzled people. So yeah, I'm being pretty strict on this.

    Fixing it is easy. Swarmshifter's adopt swarm ability lets him turn into one swarm. Whatever your first adopted swarm is, is the swarm you change into thereafter. Specify non-construct swarms to avoid the worst shenanigans, and if you feel brave, allow maybe 1-2 more forms to be adopted with high HD. (Like at 8 HD and 16 HD) No more toolbox shapeshifting.

  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Oh, I give up. I have one idea. But it'll still be "Pick your own swarm", just limited.
    EDIT: Done. You can still pick your fancy, but you only get a number of swarms = your HD/2 to pick from, with the same CL limits.
    Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2010-12-12 at 03:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Oh for crying out loud........you expect everyone who uses this class to be a Munchkin.
    We want these classes balanced as close as we can. So yes, we must assume, to a certain degree, that anyone playing these classes will be a munchkin, a rules lawyer, and easily confused. We shouldn't leave balance up to DM fiat, its unskillful at the end of the day. That said, silly abuses of the rules have no business as a balancing point either, abuses that use Buckets of Water, Candles of Invocation, or 500 commoners standing in line aren't great examples of what is or isn't balanced.

    However I do agree, the Swarmshifter would best be detailed as possible.
    Recommendations should be rules.
    Come with me, time out of mind...

  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Well, now it's been specified on how it works, and you get a limited amout of forms to choose from. And that's as far as i'm going, because making it scale would be an almighty pain, or it'll be one of thoes classes that's put off until 20th level, to get a CR 19 swarm.

  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Any more comments/suggestions for the Phrenic Creature?

    Also ...

    Thorn
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    The Weapon of Thorns ability need some heavy rewording. The second paragraph is very confusing and makes little to no sense until you read the third paragraph. What I took from it was "I can make little thorns grow on a weapon I hold." which has no effect other than an aesthetic one.

    Also, the ability itself is tremendously powerful. It's the ultimate 1 level dip for any melee character that needs a weapon. You only ever need to buy mundane weapons, then spend 5 minutes to give it bonuses better than those you could reasonably afford using WBL.

    Perhaps allow it to only boost the item in this way for a certain number of rounds per encounter? HD rounds, or HD/2 rounds would be appropriate I think.

    Protection of the Courts is fine.

    Subduing strike is neat, I like it. Give a bonus d6 when using a thorn weapon maybe, to keep it themed with the weapons?

    2*HD for Slumbering Shot is a bit much. Either make it at-will and tone it down, or make it limited and power it up. 2*HD is more than you're ever gonna need really. Perhaps allow it to be delivered through a melee attack instead, rather than forcing them into archery?

    Melee weapon of barbs seems kind of odd - You're very unlikely to get enough hits on something to totally strip it's natural armour, as those with small NA tend to have low HP and those with enough HP to have it stripped will have more than 5. Perhaps reduce it by 1/4 for each hit (rounded down), totally ignoring it on the 5th hit, dealing the extra 50% damage and then resetting it to full again? Or perhaps reducing it by 1 per HD? Just some kind of scaling would be nice.

    Have the ranged thorns cap at HD or something in terms of the penalties, otherwise I can forsee a lot of death by dex damage.


    [b]I'm endorsing the Wendigo as an "expert".
    Last edited by Niezck; 2010-12-12 at 04:07 PM.
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    Dwarf Ancestor

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    [Original Post]
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: d10
    Class Skills: The dwarf ancestor's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: History (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Listen (Wis), & Spot (Wis).

    Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int mod) x4.
    Skill Points at each additional level: 4+ Int modifier.

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special Ability
    1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Ancestor Body, Ancestral Spirit +1, Ancestral Knowledge, +1 Str
    2|+2|+3|+0|+0|Power Attack, Dwarven Warcraft, +1 Con
    3|+3|+3|+1|+1|Dwarven Hammer, Hardening, +1 Str
    4|+4|+4|+1|+1|Moderate Fortification, Ancestral Spirit +2, +1 Con
    5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Stone Hammer, Blink Out, Growth, +1 Str,
    6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Stone Warcraft, Improved Hardening, +1 Con
    [/table]


    Ancestor Body: The dwarf ancestor loses all other racial traits and becomes an outsider with the native subtype. The dwarf ancestor has the following characteristics:
    • Darkvision 60ft
    • Proficient with all simple and martial weapons. Not proficient with any type of armor or shields.
    • Does not need to eat, sleep, or breath, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes' feats and potions. Spellcasters must still rest for 8 hours before regaining spells for the day.
    • Natural Armor bonus equal to Constitution modifier
    • Damage Reduction (Adamantine) equal to Half Hit Die (minimum DR 1/Adamantine).
    • Living Plate
    • Light Fortification
    • Dwarven Heritage

    • Living Plate: The Dwarf Ancestor's body is actually a form of living stone that provides a +4 armor bonus and resembles full plate. This living plate is not natural armor and does not stack with other effects that give an armor bonus (other than natural armor). The living plate occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a dwarf ancestor cannot wear armor or magic robes. Dwarf ancestors can be enchanted just as armor can, though the ancestor dwarf must be present for the entire time it takes to enchant him.

      Living plate also provides an dwarf ancestor with a 5% arcane spell failure chance, though any class ability that allows an ancestor dwarf to ignore the arcane spell failure chance for light armor lets him ignore this penalty as well.
    • Light Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a dwarf ancestor, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
    • Dwarven Heritage (Ex): The dwarf ancestor counts as a dwarf for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes, as well as using dwarf only magic items.


    Ancestral Spirit (Su): Any ally (including the dwarf ancestor) within 30ft of the dwarf ancestor gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 every 4 character levels.

    Ancestral Knowledge (Ex): Levels in dwarven ancestor count as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats that require a minimum number of fighter levels.

    Power Attack (Ex): At 2nd level the dwarf ancestor gains Power Attack as a bonus feat.

    Dwarven Warcraft (Ex): The dwarven ancestor learns the fighting technique of the heroic dwarven defenders. Any opponent that the dwarven ancestor threatens takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls against the dwarven ancestors allies. The penaly does not apply to attacks made against the dwarven ancestor, and enemies the dwarven ancestor threatens become aware of the consequences of this fighting technique.

    Dwarven Hammer (Ex): As a standard action the dwarven ancestor may make a single melee attack. This attack deals an extra +2d6 damage and automatically overcomes damage reduction and hardness.

    Hardening (Ex): The armor bonus provided by the dwarf ancestors living plate increases to +6.

    Moderate Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a dwarf ancestor, there is a 75% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

    Stone Hammer (Ex): As a standard action the dwarven ancestor may make a single melee attack. This attack deals an extra +4d6 damage and automatically overcomes damage reduction and hardness.

    Blink Out (Su): Once per encounter as a free action the dwarf ancestor can become incorpreal until the beginning of it's next turn. Activating this ability is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

    Growth (Ex): At 5th level the dwarf ancestor increases in size to Large (tall).

    Stone Warcraft (Ex): The dwarf ancestor reaches out to the earth and stone beneath him, buckling the ground and rippling the dirt. While you are standing on the ground, any opponent that you threaten that takes any sort of movement provokes an attack of opportunity from you. The opponent provokes the attack before leaving the threatend area and opponents may not use the withdraw action when they are in your threatend area.

    Improved Hardening (Ex): The armor bonus provided by the dwarf ancestors living plate increases to +8.

    Tome of Battle Adaptation
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    If your campaign is using the Tome of Battle make the following changes to the Dwarf Ancestor.
    • Ancestral Knowledge (Ex): Levels in dwarven ancestor are counted as full initiator levels when used to determine the initiator level of a multiclass dwarven ancestor/initiating class (crusader, swordsage, warblade). Most initiating dwarven ancestors are Crusaders.
    • Dwarven Warcraft (Ex): This ability counts as a Devoted Spirit maneuver for the purposes of determing the number of Devoted Spirit maneuvers a dwarven ancestor knows.
    • Stone Warcraft (Ex): This ability counts as a Devoted Spirit maneuver for the purposes of determing the number of Devoted Spirit maneuvers a dwarven ancestor knows.
    • Dwarven Hammer (Ex): This ability counts as a Stone Dragon maneuver for the purposes of determining the number of Stone Dragon maneuvers a dwarven ancestor knows.
    • Stone Hammer (Ex): This ability counts as a Stone Dragon maneuver for the purposes of determing the number of Stone Dragon manevuers a dwarven ancestor knows.


    Comments/Changelog
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    Updated: 12/12/2011

    I removed Cleave & Supreme Cleave and reduced the ability bonuses to +3 Str, +3 Con, staggered out over the levels. I increased the fortification to moderate and made Ancestral Spirit scale with character levels.

    Added in two abilities that mimic two Devoted Spirit stances and two abilites that mimic two Stone Dragon maneuvers.

    In a ToB campaign these abilities help with a multiclassed dwarven ancestor. In a regular game the dwarven ancestor instead uses his levels in dwaren ancestor to qualify for fighter feats.

    The DA also can use dwarf only magic items and can take dwarf only feats and prestige classes.

    Overall the class now has things it can do in combat - technically. It gets a basic attack that does better damage. It's passive abilities help out in combat, by focusing the enemies attacks on itself and having enemies provoke AoO's. Moderate Fortification is also a big boost for combat staying power.


    Original Comments:
    I took a page from the Warforged and gave the dwarf ancestor a version of composite plating that can be enchanted. The armor bonus increases as the dwarf ancestor gains levels until at level 6 the living plate grants a +8 armor bonus.

    The dwarf ancestor's natural armor gets reduced significantly to balance this, thereby avoiding the trap of having a really high natural armor bonus but not being able to wear armor.

    Blink Out is modified to once per encounter and Ancestral Spirit is changed to all allies (not just dwarves).

    Supreme Cleave helps out with an otherwise lack-luster combat option.

    Overall the dwarf ancestor is a simple tank, with a high armor class and good damage reduction. It doesn't come with advanced combat tactics built in but is instead a good chassis for melee characters.
    "We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Lammasu
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    • Ok, D6 HD, one good save, alright skills. Looks fine here.
    • Divine Body:
      • 'Divine Body' is already used by another class, I'm 90% sure. Recommending Lammasu Body instead, which will be clearer on your character sheet, as well.
      • Of claw attacks & bite, which is primary?
      • Good, quick answer on the +4 jump from wings.
    • Holy Shield:
      • Is it 1 consecutive minute, or can you stop & start it to stretch it out?
    • Rake:
      • Be nice to save players from looking it up & just stating it, since it's SRD material.
    • The "And nor" under divine connection should be just "nor".
    • Reference to fine manipulation (and speech, for that matter) should be under Divine/Lammasu Body.
    • Flight:
      • I'd pre-empt shenanigans and state it "doubles to 60ft". Otherwise you've got characters getting flight from another source & doubling it to a ridiculous number. 120' flight speed, wooo!
      • I think you meant to spell "manoeuvrability" as "maneuverability."
    • Lammasu Magic:
      • That's a lot of invisibility castings. I've never used Lammasu in a campaign, so can't speak as to their tactics, but you might want to slow progression there.
    • Growth:
      • It's -> you meant its.
    • Pounce is fine.
    • Shining Light is fine.
    • Greater Lammasu Magic:
      • I'd clarify that Greater Invisibility replaces Invisibility.
    • Looks pretty good otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Golden Protector
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    • Requirements are kinda boring. Alignment restrictions suck, and the skill requirements (along with the Lammasu's small skill points per level) really restrict the character entering Golden Protector.
    • I'd give a bonus to claw damage and/or natural armor for those who already have them (ie. Lammassu becoming golden protectors).
    • Breath Weapon:
      • I'd state Golden Protector levels instead count as a 10ft increase instead.
      • Reflex save should be based on a stat, rather than golden protector levels, to scale appropriately.
    • Outsider Skin - looks alright.
    • Resist the Elements:
      • I think I'd state that the choice is made once, for clarity.
    • Dragon's Wings:
      • Maneuverability.
      • Same issue as the Lammasu. If you've already got 120' fly speed from another source, you're potentially doubling that. In fact, RAW, it applies to any source of flight.
    • Superior Protection:
      • Wording is a little awkward. At the very least, I'd replace "and in addition" with ". Finally, it gains the Improved Initiative Feat."
    • Smite: Seems ok.
    • Supreme Protector:
      • "Any means short of deific power."... does that mean my divine casting of Resist Energy (which technically comes from a god) still prevents the damage?


    Overall, not bad. Gold dragons don't bug me any. If I had any complaints, it would be that the classes are a little boring. That is, it doesn't get much that hasn't been done before, and in terms of playstyle, it doesn't really innovate or break new ground. On the plus side, this does mean it should be fairly easy to judge & get added to the list.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-12-12 at 04:42 PM.

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    I'm pre-emptively calling dibs on the Chimera for after the Lammasu gets some feedback.

    Ninjas!! Damn to the depths whoever invented ninjas!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    ...

    Overall, not bad. Gold dragons don't bug me any. If I had any complaints, it would be that the classes are a little boring. That is, it doesn't get much that hasn't been done before, and in terms of playstyle, it doesn't really innovate or break new ground. On the plus side, this does mean it should be fairly easy to judge & get added to the list.
    Yeah, I know they're boring. But I was stumped for ideas. Might do like I was told to with the Titan and throw in a couple of fluff abilities that don't really affect the game at all, but make the class appear more interesting.
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    Were-Elemental (Water)

    Very interesting, and I like it at first glance.

    Lunar Body does not grant the (Aquatic) subtype, so you can't breathe underwater... despite being a were-water elemental. That could be a problem, though I'd understand giving something like Hold Breath at first level and full water breathing later.

    In Alternate Form you never specify that the full elemental form cannot speak, but add it as one of the things the hybrid can definitely do, which should be clarified. Otherwise I don't have a problem with it.

    In Water Elemental Empathy your first use of the word "Animals" and the use of the word "Beasts" should both be "Creatures".

    Wave Sense allows you to gain "Tremer-Sense", which should be "Tremorsense". Otherwise okay, requiring you take full elemental form for very short range but nigh-undefeatable (except for flight, which would either be as easily seen by you as anyone else or be invisible, in which case anyone without see invisibility or a similar effect is screwed, not just you) sense is fine by me.

    Whirlpool may be slightly overpowered for level one, but it is situational and short-duration, so it isn't significantly so. You use "Whirlwind" at least twice. The kicking up of debris wouldn't always apply upon hitting the bottom of a body of water, and might apply at other times. Make it whenever the Whirlpool passes through debris, and the effect disperses 1d4 rounds after leaving the area of debris. Also, in the text you say the Save DC is Strength-based but the table says Constitution, that could use a clarification.

    I assume the ally saving someone can only occur if they threaten the space holding the unconcious person in Drown. Might want to have an opposed grapple check on there (thematically appropriate, and you can give the WE(W) a penalty if it would be too powerful), though it's not nearly necessary. You don't explicitly mention that the opposed Swim vs. Grapple check is to escape the Drowning, nor do you mention what the Will save does at all (apart from to "regain focus", which doesn't mean anything), nor do you mention that a concious person can attempt to escape each round or that anyone else can help them. A cool ability, but the wording needs to be tightened up a lot. You've got the same as the much-mocked drowning rules for hit points, this can (sort of) heal people. I'd also like to see a version that functions in Hybrid form, perhaps at Huge size and larger.

    I'd suggest having Flow as a swift action at first, becoming a free action at 8 HD or something similar. Otherwise a fine ability!

    In Magucanthropy, well I'll bold the appropriate sections and unclear sections:
    Curse of Magucanthrope: At fourth level the Were-Elemental (Water) can transmit Magucanthropy to other creatures. If a Humanoid or Giant of (the same sizes as the Prerequisites for this class) is hit by the Were-Elemental (Water)’s natural attacks while it is in either Alternate form, the struck creature must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the Were-Elemental (Water)’s HD+ Constitution modifier) or contract Magucanthropy. Magucanthropy Functions exactly as Magucanthropy except as noted above. For more information on Magucanthropy, check the Lycanthrope entry in the monster manual.
    Some of those should be Lycanthropy, I think. A bit trigger happy with find-replace?

    A fine class, but the wording needs a lot of work, even if it is just small things. This may have been the wrong thread, if it is then tell me.

    That's the last review I'll be doing today, but as of now, I start work on the Gargoyle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScionoftheVoid View Post
    That's the last review I'll be doing today, but as of now, I start work on the Gargoyle.
    You'll be the fourth person I'm aware of to try. Past attempts have struggled with the fact that there's just too much passive stuff and not enough active abilities to make it interesting to play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    D8 seems like a lot of HD for a vine. I really would have conceptualized the creature as a low HD parasite rather than a beefy tank.
    Fair enough, yes, that would be the aim, I'll lower it to d6, make it more like Rogue.
    It has bluff/diplomacy, but can't speak?
    Sense motive on a plant seems... unusual. In fact, all of the Cha skills do.
    Fair enough.
    Photosynthesis: Kind of runs against natural inclinations. Creeping vines, particularly parasitic ones, are antiphototropic. That is, they grow away from natural light. They get their energy from whatever they're preying on (other plants or in case of carnivorous plants, insects/animals).
    Okay, that's a good point. I'll try and replace it with a different ability.
    Musk Puff: I'm not sure I like the notion of musk puff being used as a 200' targeted attack at level 20. I might suggest it would be a ray attack, no damage, force fort save on hit.
    I'll change it to a ray.
    Further, 1d8 per 2HD rounds is... a really long time. Long enough that most creatures the party runs against would be almost guaranteed to fall victim to it. Is that necessary? What's the design goal?
    I suppose that's a good point. Original monster has 4 CR and 2d8, but I can see how it would essentially be one big save-or-lose at high levels. One thing I would aim for is still making the duration scale in some way, so at high levels, far-away enemies still have time to get to you.

    I'd make the "You suffer no penalty for having opponents in your space (or even being grappled?) a separate ability of the class. You're a vine, after all.
    That's a good idea.

    'might even affect companions' - Needs more defined rules. When will a creature attack friends? Will they use their full complement of abilities?
    I'll specify some more.

    Ability Score Bonuses: Stat bonuses seem ok balancewise. Designwise, a little one dimensional. It's... not what I'd first think of when conceptualizing the class.
    No, me neither, actually. It was suggested to me to change them earlier. I originally had Charisma and Constitution. Maybe change to dex now that Musk Puff will be a ranged touch?
    Mind Eater: I'd rework this to operate as an automatic aspect of a successful grapple. Easy to visualize the one guy who refuses to be puffed, wrestling with the vine to keep the tendrils from piercing his brain.
    Good thought! That'd work well.

    Spore sniping is kinda redundant. After 4th level, you shouldn't ever have range issues with it.
    Probably not, but I don't like having facets of abilities you can't improve by your choices. Maybe there's one creeper who wants to stand on a cliffside and puff those far below it to climb the mountain.

    I do not like Focused Blossom. Maybe tie it to iterative attacks in BAB?
    You think so? I suppose.

    Creeper is ok, but I might change it to allow someone to take it multiple times, with a bonus other than the +4 move silently each time.
    As stated, you can take all abilities multiple times.

    Plant Strength is kinda a lame name for an ability. The ability also references zombies, which doesn't come up until later in the class. A mite confusing and awkward. (You can get a bonus to zombie strength well before you have zombies to control).
    You get more abilities as you HD up-- so of course I wanted abilities referencing all the class abilities of the class.
    Halo of Tendrils - I don't like it. The class has a good flavor of drawing enemies into one's embrace, and this breaks that flavor.
    In... what way does it break that flavor? All it does is allow you to embrace people standing next to you, as well as directly inside you.
    Also, the word Permanent really, really, really bugs me. I can imagine a DM having an argument with a player over the fact that the yellow musk creeper the player fought permanently left vines/flowers sticking out of the character's head.
    Fair enough, I'll change the wording.

    Greenery Shield is ok, but given the issues I take with the anti-flavor of photosynthesis, the regeneration buff may be problematic. The reference to regeneration has same issues as plant strength, in referring to class features that haven't been detailed yet.
    Again, you gain flowering after you have gained those abilities, so I want to have options that improve 4 levels of abilities, not 2.

    Growth - The powerful build thing is kind of a trademark of giants and giant types, which I personally worked on. I can't say I adore that, or how it's used/outlined here. Also, the colossal yellow musk plant... I can't really see it. In reading the class, this is where it really feels like it's straying wholesale from the concept & implementation of the core monster.
    Well, it was suggested to me a while back that for scaling growth progressions, using powerful build in intervals was a good way to go. Further, the core monster is CR 4, and huge size. It IS a big monster. By the time you're 20th level, you're essentially a wall of roiling vines covered in heady scented flowers.
    Yellow Musk Zombies - Too powerful, by far. It's too easy to get a mess of zombies, and with the stat bonuses you can pick up, you can make them absolute monsters.
    You're talking about a 15th level PC having 60HD of minions under its sway. More than that, we must remember that HD doesn't always correlate to CR, so you could have some low HD, higher CR threats under your control, giving you an absolutely ridiculous boost in raw power. Further, this hurts the group dynamic. Why have teammates when you're a one character army?
    It's very similar to what a necromancer caster would get. Necromancers get control of 4 HD of undead per level. Further, you lose many of your abilities when you become a YMZ, just like becoming a skeleton. And as for the group dynamic argument, the same could be said for any character with minions. 4 HD per level is enough to get up to 4 useful minions, or more that are less useful.
    Honestly, not the way I would've conceptualized the class. My own approach would've been to have a relatively vulnerable, slow moving plant (with class abilities allowing it to root in a host, and mitigate vulnerabilities) with the ability to control a more narrow selection of minions. So you'd be a fairly narrow and one-trick character as a PC, but you'd have a wealth of options as far as keeping, say, a maximum of 3 zombies at a given time.[/spoiler]
    It originally moved slower, but lots of people told me it would be too hard to play in a party. I'm not sure what you mean when you say root in a host-- there's no way I can visualize this thing possessing someone.
    Last edited by Magicyop; 2010-12-12 at 05:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicyop View Post
    It's very similar to what a necromancer caster would get. Necromancers get control of 4 HD of undead per level. Further, you lose many of your abilities when you become a YMZ, just like becoming a skeleton. And as for the group dynamic argument, the same could be said for any character with minions. 4 HD per level is enough to get up to 4 useful minions, or more that are less useful.
    Becoming a YMZ is nowhere near "just like becoming a skeleton". As you have it written, you lose class abilities and innate spellcasting, but not Sp or Su abilities which skeletons lose entirely, nor Ex abilities which they lose many of. This is a very important distinction; while it means that human or orc YMZs are functionally skeleton-like meatshields, a beholder YMZ is essentially a full-powered beholder, a mind flayer shockingly loses almost nothing for having its mind eaten, and so on. With the right YMZs, this ability is extremely powerful, more so than nearly any permanent-minion option in the game and far more so than any with as few restrictions as the Yellow Musk Creeper has.

    I suggested a possible fix a little earlier; you don't have to pick mine, but you really should know that the YMZ is more powerful than you seem to think. I don't have a problem with large quantities of minions or with reasonably powerful minions, but large quantities of permanent equal-CR or even over-CR minions? That's a potential problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Becoming a YMZ is nowhere near "just like becoming a skeleton". As you have it written, you lose class abilities and innate spellcasting, but not Sp or Su abilities which skeletons lose entirely, nor Ex abilities which they lose many of. This is a very important distinction; while it means that human or orc YMZs are functionally skeleton-like meatshields, a beholder YMZ is essentially a full-powered beholder, a mind flayer shockingly loses almost nothing for having its mind eaten, and so on. With the right YMZs, this ability is extremely powerful, more so than nearly any permanent-minion option in the game and far more so than any with as few restrictions as the Yellow Musk Creeper has.

    I suggested a possible fix a little earlier; you don't have to pick mine, but you really should know that the YMZ is more powerful than you seem to think. I don't have a problem with large quantities of minions or with reasonably powerful minions, but large quantities of permanent equal-CR or even over-CR minions? That's a potential problem.
    I'm sorry, it seems I must have missed your fix. If you could repost it, that'd be great... thanks!

    That's a fair point, I'll reduce the abilities that the YMZ retains, and limit the minions to having a maximum HD each.
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    Response to Hyudra, things changed and not:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra
    Table formatting, right off that bat: Consider shortening Base Attack Bonus to BAB, and having the saves shortened to Fort, Ref & Will. Will make the table tidier (that, or copy-paste another table from another monster entry and replace the data.) As is, it looks a little distorted.
    Done.

    D12 HD, less than full BAB progression, one good save, 2 skill points a level. I'm looking at this and telling myself the bug had better get something good to compensate, because it's not gonna thrive, as is.
    Yeah? I'd like to think it does.

    Like I said for the gibbering mouther, I really urge people to be specific with naming the 'body' abilities. Being too vague will create overlap, with multiple monsters potentially having 'insectoid body'. Creates ugliness if you were to, say, gestalt monster classes. Rename to Ankheg body?
    Done.

    Burrow speed at 1st level is problematic for much the same reason flight is. You can't burrow and snipe at people from underground, but other shenanigans are possible. I faced this issue with my own purple worm, and gave it slow progression.
    Eh... you can get burrow speed by 3rd level, so I don't think the extremes of slowness you took with the purple worm are quite warranted. Also, this is the 'good thing' at this point that helps the ankheg survive.

    I changed it to 5'/HD because 10'/3 HD was starting to confuse me as to what I wanted them to get when, and it fit with the other guy's suggestion without continuing to confuse me.

    Burrowing through adamantine - I predict some player trying to use this to justify their attacks going through an enemy's armor. I don't think the exotic material burrowing is necessary.
    ... Yeaah, that player would be shot down for the same reason a white dragon's burrow speed can't pierce ice armor. That said, I agree they aren't necessary, I threw them out for the people who wanted it to burrow through force and weird stuff like that. Changed to simple progression.

    Please, please, please state what level an ability is gained, in the ability description. It's a pain to constantly backtrack to the table to double check. For anyone critiquing (me) and anyone playing the class.
    Okay.

    Creating a 5'x5'x15' tunnel as fast as you're describing is a bit much, I think. Also, this kind of breaks campaigns. Consider how this impacts a group's progression through a dungeon, past major threats, etc.
    *checks her campaigns* About the same, actually. This is exactly what the cleric in my campaign is doing at 5th level, and if campaigns are broken by then we have a problem.

    Is more or less fine, though I still take issue with low level burrowing, but I see a lot of Ankhegs going into Rogue for the sneak attack damage. I might rework the flatfootedness.
    A touch of synergy doesn't hurt.

    You get it at 2nd level, and it oftentimes does nothing. By which I mean, you can drag a creature 5' per 3 HD... but if you have only 2HD, it's a useless ability. Move to 3rd level or give it a minimum 5' drag? Consider a cap on the maximum, too.
    Put a minimum on it. It's never going to get over its burrow speed, so we don't have that paradox at least.

    Thinking of ways to abuse it... an Ankheg needs to cover a lot of ground in combat, so he moves a full 30', grapples a teammate, who voluntarily fails the grapple check, then ankheg moves X' underground as bonus movement.
    This does not get him as far as simply moving 30' and then burrowing, and is therefore not an abuse, though it might be a good strategy if you need to move the teammate.

    What happens if you drag an opponent underground and leave them there?
    No clue. I'm going to make them go back to those tunnels of theirs instead. If they grapple and then burrow normally, well, those situations can happen in the first place, and therefore there must exist rules to deal with them ... yes?

    It says you 'may' take them with you. What happens if you don't?
    You have to, now.

    A bit weak when compared to dragon's breath weapons. Single target vs. AoE, lower damage. Needs something to spice it up. A bonus effect or something.
    It does - the 50% health, double damage thing. It's supposed to be a relatively desperate move on the part of the ankheg, so I tried to keep that flavor.

    Again, I don't think we should be using staggered powerful build. To me, it's a Giant & Gigantic creature thing. Just give it steady growth.
    Sure, but, I think the point of staggered growth was to make it smoother, not make it ... ah ... giant. Still, I changed that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niezck View Post
    The Weapon of Thorns ability need some heavy rewording. The second paragraph is very confusing and makes little to no sense until you read the third paragraph. What I took from it was "I can make little thorns grow on a weapon I hold." which has no effect other than an aesthetic one.

    Also, the ability itself is tremendously powerful. It's the ultimate 1 level dip for any melee character that needs a weapon. You only ever need to buy mundane weapons, then spend 5 minutes to give it bonuses better than those you could reasonably afford using WBL.

    Perhaps allow it to only boost the item in this way for a certain number of rounds per encounter? HD rounds, or HD/2 rounds would be appropriate I think.
    Changed the ability so that it requires all four Thorn class levels, and only provides the bonus for a total of twice their Wisdom modifier rounds per encounter.

    Protection of the Courts is fine.
    Swoot

    Subduing strike is neat, I like it. Give a bonus d6 when using a thorn weapon maybe, to keep it themed with the weapons?
    Actually it requires a thorn weapon to use, but either way I'm fairly happy with where subduing strikes is at either way. Plus, it could get a little bit wordy if I'm listing all the other circumstances in which they can increase their subduing strikes damage.

    2*HD for Slumbering Shot is a bit much. Either make it at-will and tone it down, or make it limited and power it up. 2*HD is more than you're ever gonna need really. Perhaps allow it to be delivered through a melee attack instead, rather than forcing them into archery?
    I'm not quite what to make of this point... 2*HD is a bit much, but at-will is not? I'm fairly firm on it being a ranged attack though, but let's see what I can do to polish the ability up a bit.

    As for uses, I think 2*HD seems like more then it is. Even with that many shots, to put an enemy to sleep you need to hit them, damage them, and then they need to fail a save (Or, my original intent was to require damage, going to fix that wording). So that's six shots per day when they first get the ability, not a whole lot in my book.

    I have changed it so that a melee Thorn can still take advantage of the ability without having to juggle multiple weapons. Also, I am reminded that sleep has a duration, so I've provided an effective caster level to base that off of. And I added some extra utility in the ability against constructs and undead, since most of their class features are otherwise useless.

    Melee weapon of barbs seems kind of odd - You're very unlikely to get enough hits on something to totally strip it's natural armour, as those with small NA tend to have low HP and those with enough HP to have it stripped will have more than 5. Perhaps reduce it by 1/4 for each hit (rounded down), totally ignoring it on the 5th hit, dealing the extra 50% damage and then resetting it to full again? Or perhaps reducing it by 1 per HD? Just some kind of scaling would be nice.
    Mmm, went and added some scaling, though I'm still willing to play around with the concept some more.

    Have the ranged thorns cap at HD or something in terms of the penalties, otherwise I can forsee a lot of death by dex damage.
    Well, it is a dex penalty, so it can't reduce the score below one, and 0 dex is paralysis instead of death (though either effectively ends the encounter depending on the target). A cap really doesn't make too much sense either, it needs to be high enough to be effective, but I think a lot of targets will probably be dead by then. If too low it's only best against low dex creatures and not really that effective against higher dex ones.

    On another point, the Wendigo's original creator has been banned, which I find disappointing as now I'll never have my comments on the class addressed.
    Last edited by Zemro; 2010-12-12 at 07:48 PM.
    Homebrew Monster Classes:
    Arcadian Avenger|Thorn|Marrash|Justice Archon

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