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  1. - Top - End - #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    I have no such ranks, but the consensus is that full BAB is for those with combat training/skill rather than brutes that just smash stuff because they'll likely have relatively high strength scores that will make up for it. I learned that with my Titan.
    This is correct.

    Strength bonuses compensate for lowered BAB, resulting in a class that hits a little less often, but is much better at hitting hard.

    So recommendation for any creature that wouldn't be considered trained is to lower the BAB but add to the stats, and to give combat options via. abilities to give it an edge vs. the comparable maneuvers/feats/class features of more trained combatants.

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    Hooray, new page.

    Now I can prod people into looking at the Lammasu again.
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Hooray, new page.

    Now I can prod people into looking at the Lammasu again.
    Same with the Gibbering mouther
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  4. - Top - End - #514
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    Okay, so after a lot of discussion, we've finally worked out a good compromise. The new rules will be edited into the first post, but please read this post for details.

    While the fully community structured nomination system is great, and definitely representative of a more open atmosphere, it seems to be apparent that it is far too slow to get a monster on the list, in addition to other issues.

    We don't want to give up the open atmosphere, but neither do we wish to accept these problems, or turn a cold shoulder to those who prefer a more structured system of approval.

    Thus we are replacing the nomination system with the council system. We have decided upon a council, who will govern throughout them what monsters go up on the list. That council, at the present time, will consist of myself, Hyudra, and Gorgondantess. For a monster to be passed, all it needs is two votes of approval from council members-- which means you don't have to get it approved by all those in the council.

    We still encourage you all to critique others monsters, and to do so thoughtfully and helpfully, according to the rules detailed for critiquing on the first post. Council members are also required to follow these rules. In some cases, if you believe you are fit to be on the council, you may privately request to them that you be added. If all the council members approve you to be on the council, then you will be added to the council. We will likely only be willing to grant this position to those who critique monsters often and critique them well, so if you'd like to accept the responsibility one day, see that you do that.

    The fate of the thread in general will still be mostly democratic. Any ideas or thoughts you have can be brought to the council, and will be seriously considered and taken into account. At all times, as I said before, council members are not above the rules of the thread.

    Finally, council members will make sure to look at every monster-- no monster will be looked over briefly and then discarded.

    So, that's the compromise we've worked out. Hopefully monsters will start going up at a greater speed, and all those put off by the disagreement between our two parties can find solace in this resolution.

    Thanks for listening!
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  5. - Top - End - #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicyop View Post
    Stuff
    And, in the wake of all that, off the top of my head, monsters that are done or nearly done enough to warrant a final look & vote (drawn from the unfinished monster class list):
    • Wendigo
    • Purple Worm
    • Animated Object
    • Maug
    • Swarmshifter
    • Umber Hulk
    • Dwarf Ancestor
    • Awakened Cat


    I can't speak for other creatures, either because I haven't given them a serious look since recent revisions by their authors or I don't view them as being nearly finished. I just suggest this as a starting point for reviews & votes.

    I'll be looking over the above creatures & giving suggestions and/or a vote first, before I move on to others. Gorgon & Yop are welcome to suggest others for closer examination & vote.

    I'm really hoping that we can tidy up this backlog & get these creatures added to the list ASAP.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-12-16 at 04:54 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #516
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    Looks like a good list, Hyudra.

    I'll start by personally voting to approve the purple worm and umber hulk. They both previously struck me as being very well made classes, and after another look just now, they seem to be all in order. Still looking over the rest and writing up some comments.

    EDIT: If no one minds, I'm going to repost the Wendigo... the original homebrewer got banned, but it's a nice class, so I'd hate to see it go away. I'll simply make any changes requested, and clean up the spelling and grammar a little bit. I don't think there's much other option, besides just putting it up as-is or ignoring it.
    Last edited by Magicyop; 2010-12-16 at 05:09 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #517
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    Re: Wendigo; Actually, I'm in the middle of writing up my post, and I'd already written up a request to be allowed to do the same thing, while simultaneously correcting some serious grammar/spelling errors. So go for it.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    Wendigo
    By DarkEnar


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    Monster Prestige Class

    Requirements:
    To qualify to become a Wendigo, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

    Race: Animal, giant, humanoid, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid.
    Special: Must have their Wisdom reduced to 0 by Wendigo's hunger, OR perform a special ritual that demands they spend three days walking through a forest or tundra without stopping, resting, eating, or drinking.

    HD: d6
    {table]Level|BaB|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
    1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Stumped Body, Maddening Whispers, Stalking Paranoia, Primal Instincts
    2|+1|+0|+0|+3|Wind Walk, Regeneration, Wendigo Hunger, Ravenous Bite, +1 Dex
    [/table]

    Skills: 2+Intelligence modifier per level, class skills are Balance, Bluff, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Knowledge (nature), Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival.

    Proficiencies: The Wendigo becomes proficient with its natural bite attack.

    Stumped Body: Unlike other monster classes, a Wendigo doesn't lose any racial ability modifiers, but its type changes to Fey and it gains the cold subtype (immunity to cold, +50% damage from fire effects). The Wendigo gains a primary natural bite attack dealing 1d6 plus 1˝ times its Strength bonus if it's a medium sized creature, adjust damage acordingly for other creature sizes.

    Also, when gaining this template, the creature starts running with such speed that it's feet or paws burn away into charred bloody stumps that cannot be healed, but the Wendigo becomes able to float just above ground at a speed of 10 feet per HD. This allows it to ignore difficult terrain. If the Wendigo has 6 HD or more, it can instead fly with perfect maneuverability at the same speed.

    Finally, the Wendigo gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC, that stacks with one other deflection bonus from a single source of the player's choice, like a ring of deflection.

    Maddening Whispers: 1/day per HD, as a standard action, the Wendigo may whisper insane thoughts into a target creature within 10 feet per HD. Only the target creature can hear them, and they must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier) or take 1d3 wisdom damage. This wisdom damage increases one die size for every 4 HD of the Wendigo.

    At 8 HD it becomes Wisdom Drain.

    At 12 HD it deals half Wisdom Drain even if the victim suceeds on the save.

    At 16 HD it can affect creatures immune to ability drain, but it deals half drain on a failed save and no drain on a successful save.

    This is not a fear ability, and may ignore any immunity to mind-affecting attacks, with the exception of mindless creatures, which are still immune to this effect.

    Stalking Paranoia: Just because others can't see a Wendigo doesn't mean it isn't there. As a swift action the Wendigo may select a creature in his field of vision that hasn't detected the Wendigo. That creature takes -2 on any roll or modifier based on its wisdom, as the Wendigo lurks just at the corner of the victim's field of vision, making them paranoid. This penalty lasts until the target detects the Wendigo or the Wendigo loses sight of the target. This may only target one creature at a time.

    For every 5 HD the Wendigo has, this penalty increases by an extra -1.

    Primal Instincts: The Wendigo's hunting senses are sharpened to the extreme. It gains a bonus on Hide, Move Silently and Survival checks equal to half its HD.

    Sky Walk: At 2nd level, once the Wendigo has 5 HD, the Wendigo can use Wind Walk as a spell-like ability on itself 1/day for every HD it has, as a move action. It can still use its Maddening Whispers ability while incorporeal. It can only float above the ground unless it has 4 or more HD.

    Regeneration: At 2nd level the Wendigo gains fast healing equal to half its HD. At 6 HD, this becomes regeneration equal to half its HD, bypassed by fire. However, it cannot regrow or re-attach lost limbs.

    Wendigo Hunger: At 2nd level, creatures bitten by the Wendigo must make a Fortitude (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier) save or contract a supernatural disease, Wendigo's Hunger.
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    Wendigo's Hunger: It incubates for 1d3 days and deals 1d3 Wisdom damage for each day it lingers. Every time Wisdom damage is taken from this, the afflicted creature must make a Will save with DC 10+1/2HD+Cha modifier or start to hunger for its own race's flesh. The creature will use any means at it's disposal to stalk and kill a member of his own race in secret, feed on it's flesh, and then return to his normal life while forgeting everything since he failed the Will save.

    Creatures reduced to 0 Wis by this disease gain the Wendigo template, but they also become mad and race to the wilderness to stalk their own victims.


    In addition, when a living or undead creature is bitten by the Wendigo in battle, it must make a will save with DC 10+1/2HD+Cha mod or spend it's next turn trying to bite the nearest creature it can see, be it friend or foe. If the creature doesn't have a bite attack it will try to grapple the neatest creature instead.

    Ravenous Bite: At 2nd level the Wendigo's bite now threatens a critical on a 18-20 and deals triple damage on a successful critical.

    Ability Score Increase: The Wendigo gains +1 Dex at second level.



    Comments/Changelog:

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    From Fiend Folio
    The Wendigo is the dark side of natural hunger, a creature that stalks his own and forever roams searching his next victim, driving them to the brink of desesperation before delivering the final blow.

    First level gives the iconic maddening whispers and stumped body plus skill bonus. Second level gives the wind walk, disease and regeneration.

    I improved the disease to make it combat-worthy by forcing biten oponents to resist or be overcome by hunger themselves. Particulary good against caster-types, not that good against big monsters with big bite attacks.

    Since it has a lot of abilities low saves, Bab and limited skill points and no new proefeciencies besides the bite.

    You can only actualy start flying at 6th level for balance purposes, but Wind-Walk flight comes online at 4th level since it's much more limited.


    Changelog
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    7/12/2010:
    -Corrected several grammar errors.
    -Made Maddening whispers 4/day per HD.



    Not made or revised in any major way by me. DarkEnar made this class, I have simply quoted it for touch-up purposes since there was not much other option.
    Last edited by Magicyop; 2010-12-21 at 01:51 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #519
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    Swarmshifter: Overall, looks well done. It is a rather powerful one-level dip for an undead, though. It's limited application might help with that.
    1. Buzzing Flesh: Looks fine, should it gain the augmented subtype?
    2. Friend of the Plague: I'm trying to think here. Couldn't this be really powerful if you're facing some swarm boss, or major villain? Swarms have no other way of dealing damage, unless they can shapeshift.
    3. I think it gets... too many forms. Maybe one per four HD? Even one per five HD wouldn't be extreme. Other than that, the swarm form feature looks mostly balanced, since they have to request to use any swarm. Decreasing the number of swarms it gets will prevent it from being batman swarm for a one level dip though.
    4. In requirements, corporeal is spelled wrong.
    5. Why does it have no class skills?


    Maug: It works well as an Iron Golem Lite type class. Seems well made, though you might want to differentiate it from said Iron Golem a little bit more.
    1. Okay, first thing: It should be in its own post.
    2. Remember that when you use a comma, a space goes after it. You have things often that look like "Construct Body,Pulverize.
    3. You misspelled "shield".
    4. Construct Body: Why does it have 40 ft. land speed? Doesn't seem like a fast creature. Again, watch that you use spaces after punctuation.
    5. Grammatically, don't use "it's" like that. If you ever get confused on that respect, remember that "It's" is equal to "it is". If "it is" does not make sense, use "its" instead.
    6. Check and make sure you use the letter "S" at the end of words when you need to, it's left off a lot.
    7. Pulverize: Pretty powerful. Maybe allow it to ignore all hardness and an amount of damage reduction equal to its HD?
    8. Rapid Repair: Try to avoid gendered pronouns.
    9. Growth: You misspelled maug.
    10. Grafts: Try to think up a couple more, or give it a way to add more grafts? Perhaps allow it to add another graft for every 10 HD it is. Something like that. Also, Grappling Hook doesn't really fit this as well as it fit the Iron Golem.
    Last edited by Magicyop; 2010-12-16 at 05:49 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #520
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    Other needed spelling/grammar/format fixes for Wendigo:
    Monstrous, space after listen under skills.

    Why does it have no class skills?
    As an undead based class, it doesn't get class skills.

  11. - Top - End - #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicyop View Post
    [*]Why does it have no class skills?[/list]
    Constructs and undead don't get class skills.
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    As an undead based class, it doesn't get class skills.
    Pardon me, I wasn't aware of that. Why is that, though? If it's an intelligent undead, and it gets skill points, it seems odd for it to not get class skills.

    I'll correct the spelling on Wendigo.

    Edited my previous post with a critique of the Maug.

    EDIT: Checked in the balance section originally written by ChumpLump and it seems it does mention that undead and constructs should have very few class skills-- but it doesn't say anything about no class skills. If this was a rule in the old thread, I never noticed it before. In any case, I propose that for intelligent creatures, even constructs and undead should gain class skills. Or, if everyone thinks they shouldn't, they shouldn't get skill points either. It seems dissonant.
    Last edited by Magicyop; 2010-12-16 at 05:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    I think the newest changes for the thread will fare well, and I plan to continue offering comment on classes to help get them to council approval levels.

    The unfinished monster table on the first page it a bit out of date as well, Gorgondantess put down some approvals on the last page that aren't yet noted. Aditionally I made some comments/suggestions on the Maug here that aren't noted.

    Also, I'm glad to see someone is taking a hold of the Wendigo, so it can continue to be developed.
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  14. - Top - End - #524
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemro Shivic View Post
    I think the newest changes for the thread will fare well, and I plan to continue offering comment on classes to help get them to council approval levels.

    The unfinished monster table on the first page it a bit out of date as well, Gorgondantess put down some approvals on the last page that aren't yet noted. Aditionally I made some comments/suggestions on the Maug here that aren't noted.

    Also, I'm glad to see someone is taking a hold of the Wendigo, so it can continue to be developed.
    Out of date might be a bad word, I'm still updating it. I must have missed your suggestions, sorry, I'll add them.

    Any nominations under the old system I've essentially purged. Basically because an expert nomination and a council vote of approval have a different weight, and some may wish to re-evaluate. Most likely, Gorgon will still approve those classes he nominated before, but I'd rather that actually be stated, instead of assuming it.
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  15. - Top - End - #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicyop View Post
    Pardon me, I wasn't aware of that. Why is that, though? If it's an intelligent undead, and it gets skill points, it seems odd for it to not get class skills.
    Because being undead offers such a wide array of bonuses and benefits and immunities (can't be crit, can't be drained, can't be poisoned, can't be diseased, etc, etc) that something has to give. Oslecamo established the 'no class skills for undead' fairly early on as a convention, and this has become a staple.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Because being undead offers such a wide array of bonuses and benefits and immunities (can't be crit, can't be drained, can't be poisoned, can't be diseased, etc, etc) that something has to give. Oslecamo established the 'no class skills for undead' fairly early on as a convention, and this has become a staple.
    Fair enough, then I'll add that to the base balances of the thread.
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    Drat, the gibbering mouther isn't on the list? I'll have to touch up on it today.
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    @Magicyop

    Oooo....Stuff for me to do is always good.
    Now, Friend of the Plague can be slightly changed, and the rest is just minor editing, but i'm not sure of the number of forms. HD/4 forms seems like too few to me. How about HD/3? That's 6 forms before Epic, which allows for a bit of choice, I think.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    And, in the wake of all that, off the top of my head, monsters that are done or nearly done enough to warrant a final look & vote (drawn from the unfinished monster class list):
    • Wendigo
    • Purple Worm
    • Animated Object
    • Maug
    • Swarmshifter
    • Umber Hulk
    • Dwarf Ancestor
    • Awakened Cat


    I can't speak for other creatures, either because I haven't given them a serious look since recent revisions by their authors or I don't view them as being nearly finished. I just suggest this as a starting point for reviews & votes.

    I'll be looking over the above creatures & giving suggestions and/or a vote first, before I move on to others. Gorgon & Yop are welcome to suggest others for closer examination & vote.

    I'm really hoping that we can tidy up this backlog & get these creatures added to the list ASAP.
    No Lammasu? I know it might not be done, but that's because no-one besides you has commented.
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    I'll let Gorgon vote on Purple Worm, as, being the creator, I can't critique it fairly.

    Wendigo:
    • Some general spelling/format errors persist. Too many to name (I had a dozen bullets on the list halfway through). If there's no objection, I'll repost the creature with fixes.
    • Minor concern over plethora of abilities.
    • Not sure I like that each bite is prompting two saving throws. Distill it down to one (ie. you contract the disease, you immediately try to bite the nearest person)?
    • Beyond that, I have no complaints with the class. +1 Vote.

    Animated Object:
    • Table is a bit squashed by the long table headers (like Base Attack Bonus where BAB would suffice).
    • Should not have class skills.
    • I have concerns about Goblin Made (action economy and all that rot). Rework it or delete it?
    • Re: Sturdy Construction, not sure I like the hardness reference. Why not just DR?
    • In fact, I'm not seeing any reference to hardness anywhere in the above text... which leads me to wonder if there's potential issues here?
      • My first line of thinking would be to have something like a hollow iron statue for the free hardness benefit (and no drawback). Upgrade to larger sizes and stronger materials for extreme benefit.
    • I'd specify, under heavy slam, that your strength bonus to your slam attack changes to 1.5 x Str. Else you've got people who just add the +1.5xStr to the existing +1xStr for 2.5x Str.
    • Codex, Resonance & Religious Artifact need to scale.
    • Ancient Tactics: Any stance? I'd put a level limit in there.
    • Re: Soul Crafted: Photograph, in 3.5 era D&D?
    • Psychedelic: Potentially problematic?. Consider that at 18HD, you can use two level 9 spells a day. Like, say, Shades... which in effect gives you access to the near-full complement of conjuration spells. Or Shadow Evocation, for the same re: evocation spells.
    • Tough Shell - Ah, here we go. The reference to Hardness. I don't know why you don't just use DR though.
    • Magic Item - Why not just let the animated object be enchanted as though it were both armor & a weapon?
    • With all of the above in mind, reserving judgment until after responses/changes.

    Maug:
    • Persistent spelling/grammar errors.
      • No spaces after commas in list or table.
      • In fact, spaces after punctuation are consistently absent.
      • "andengineering" in skills.
      • "muag" in growth.
      • "oppertunity" under Grafts/Shoving Arm.
      • "Stone Spiliter" under Grafts, several times.
      • "automaticly." under Grafts, Stone Splitter.
    • Shouldn't have class skills.
    • Otherwise, no problems. We'll probably post a spelling/grammar fix, but otherwise, +1 Vote

    Swarmshifter:
    • You regain lost hitpoints as though you had rested for a night... but IIRC, undead don't gain health for resting.
    • The Swarm Form entry is very jumbled and needs to be tidied up.
    • Too many forms, still.
    • Reference to CL when intent is probably 'CR'.
    • The whole "When you take the level in Swarmshifter, pick a number of Swarms equal to your HD/2, with a maximum CL=Your HD-1 (Including Templates) each. You may pick from any of these swarms when you use your Swarm Form ability. For every even HD you gain (2, 4, 6, 8, 10 ect...) you may pick another Swarm (with the same max CL of HD-1) to add to the list. " entry could be better condensed to "Your list of possible swarms is restricted to one swarm for every 2 HD you have."
    • But again, I think it'd be more balanced to have one form per 4HD, minimum 1.
    • No vote. Needs final tweaks.

    Umber Hulk:
    • Table Formatting is off, stretched header with long bits like "Base Attack Bonus", as mentioned in a few previously mentioned entries.
    • "it's" (in Umber Body) - You mean its.
    • I... what's with the easy entry to Horrid Monster? The prerequisites are half the fun!
    • Object=Pain - I do not like the equal sign in the ability name.
    • Powerful Build:
      • Not sure what the aim is here... but it creates problems later. It's more or less apt in this case, but weird stuff arises. See Growth, below.
    • Grab & Smash:
      • "suceed" (under Grab & Smash) - you mean succeed.
      • You say the pinned enemy is flat footed... but grappled enemies are effectively flat footed anyways. Redundant.
    • Growth:
      • The big issue with this is that the Umber Hulk is now, at 4th level, effectively a huge creature when it matters. That's... a pretty horrendous bonus, considering that even giants (which are actually big) aren't that powerful at that point.
      • You probably want powerful build to stop working at 4th, which works in this instance.
      • Growth comes a little too early, perhaps.
    • Wreck the Earth:
      • I hate the word permanent. Hate hate hate. All my hate!
      • Is this radius HDx your actual strength score? So like, at 20 Str and 20 HD, you're creating a 400 foot radius circle of difficult terrain?
      • 15 feet backwards is... a bizarrely long push. It's even more bizarre when you imagine you doing that to a colossal creature.
      • I do not like knocked prone as an easily applied condition, as previously mentioned.
      • Why in the world does it affect flying creatures?
      • "all flying creatures 100ft+5ft for every HD and below within a HD*5ft radius" Bizarrely worded & more bizarre underlying math. Needs to be reworded considerably.
    • WAARGH:
      • At 20HD, you're talking about a +15 bonus to strength and constitution... for an hour. A little much, don't you think?
      • I see Umber Hulks intentionally hurting themselves to get low, then healing back up, for the massive ability score bonus.
      • Needs tweaking/revision
    • Tools of the Trade:
      • Ironic. You spelled dummy wrong.
      • And you used your instead of you're.
      • Were the above bits intentional?
      • Your weapon blows up? What?
      • This is not the sort of thing I think of when I think of Umber Hulks.
      • Needs revision.

    Dwarven Ancestor:
    • Thought you touched it up, but issues/suggestions from this post haven't been implemented, so I'll postpone judgment.
    • Needs revision

    Awakened Cat:
    • I maintain the skill bonuses under Cattish Moxie need to be severely toned down. You're talking about a, at 21st level, +7 bonus to four skills, and a +21 bonus to another two. Fairly broad skill list & lots of skill points a level make it ridiculous as skill monkeying goes. Especially in the long run.
    • Needs revision
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-12-16 at 06:27 PM.

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    First of all, don't think that if your monster wasn't on Hyudra's list, it isn't done, or isn't good. Hyudra's list, as I understand it, is simply monsters which he has looked at previously and thinks are nearing completion. We are not limiting ourselves to that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
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    Oooo....Stuff for me to do is always good.
    Now, Friend of the Plague can be slightly changed, and the rest is just minor editing, but i'm not sure of the number of forms. HD/4 forms seems like too few to me. How about HD/3? That's 6 forms before Epic, which allows for a bit of choice, I think.
    I still think too much. How many base classes are there in the original player's handbook? With some homebrew or certain books, 6 before epic is enough to have a form for every archetype. The idea of the class is not to make you into an uber jack of all trades, but simply give you the ability to assume swarm form.

    If you strongly feel it would be better as HD/3, that's fine, and I'm willing to approve it like that. But I really do urge you to at least consider if HD/4 wouldn't be amenable.
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    Drat, the gibbering mouther isn't on the list? I'll have to touch up on it today.
    No Lammasu? I know it might not be done, but that's because no-one besides you has commented.
    I reiterate:
    I can't speak for other creatures, either because I haven't given them a serious look since recent revisions by their authors or I don't view them as being nearly finished. I just suggest this as a starting point for reviews & votes.

    I remember liking where they were at, in particular the Lammasu, but since I haven't glanced them over since revisions were implemented, I couldn't recommend them.

    Others were added to the list because I'd seen them nominated previously in the thread. The animated object and umber hulk were such instances, but in hindsight, they're probably more in need of work than others on the list. I probably won't be doing that again (and this goes to point out one of the major issues the nomination process was propogating).

    I'm thinking Lammasu and Gibbering should be next on the to-do list.

    Edit: Also, it bears saying. While the nomination/endorsement system has been done away with, I do encourage people to point out creatures that look done and deserve consideration for voting. Just do so with the knowledge that being consistently wrong is going to get further suggestions ignored.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-12-16 at 06:35 PM.

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    Animated Object responses to Hyudra:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Animated Object:
    Table is a bit squashed by the long table headers (like Base Attack Bonus where BAB would suffice).
    Noted. Changed.
    Should not have class skills.
    Can't say I'm a huge fan of the "no class skills" racket, but I understand why, and it's standard, so fixed.
    I have concerns about Goblin Made (action economy and all that rot). Rework it or delete it?
    Deleted it.
    Re: Sturdy Construction, not sure I like the hardness reference. Why not just DR?
    Hardness is something they gain at level 2. In fact, it's one of the things that I'd like to keep with this class. As opposed to DR, they get hardness, since they are an object, and hardness is in fact treated differently than DR. (They gain some bonus HP and such for each point of hardness)

    In fact, I'm not seeing any reference to hardness anywhere in the above text... which leads me to wonder if there's potential issues here?
    As stated, it's one of the things you gain at level 2.
    My first line of thinking would be to have something like a hollow iron statue for the free hardness benefit (and no drawback). Upgrade to larger sizes and stronger materials for extreme benefit.
    Not sure what you mean?
    I'd specify, under heavy slam, that your strength bonus to your slam attack changes to 1.5 x Str. Else you've got people who just add the +1.5xStr to the existing +1xStr for 2.5x Str.
    Thanks, specified.
    Codex, Resonance & Religious Artifact need to scale.
    In what way? A lot of the scaling for these abilities was intended to scale with multiple times you take the ability, and codex already scales with HD.
    Ancient Tactics: Any stance? I'd put a level limit in there.
    Whoops! Thanks.

    Re: Soul Crafted: Photograph, in 3.5 era D&D?
    Okay, that's a terrible, terrible example. Good point. I meant "portrait".
    Psychedelic: Potentially problematic?. Consider that at 18HD, you can use two level 9 spells a day. Like, say, Shades... which in effect gives you access to the near-full complement of conjuration spells.
    Fair enough, maybe I'll just say they can't choose any of the "shadow conjuration" type spells.
    [*]Tough Shell - Ah, here we go. The reference to Hardness. I don't know why you don't just use DR though.
    Because as I said before, hardness is something unique to objects. It's treated a different way. Personally, it's one reason why I'd take this class-- hardness is something interesting you can't get on most classes, since you need to be an object to have it.
    Magic Item - Why not just let the animated object be enchanted as though it were both armor & a weapon?
    That's a good idea. Changed.
    Last edited by Magicyop; 2010-12-16 at 06:42 PM.
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    Right, Swarmshifter has been tweaked again, and i'm off to tweak the Umber Hulk. Oh, and the typos are because my Laptop's keys arn't in perfect condition, and i'm not sure if I was thinking straight when I checked Umber Hulk for typos.
    EDIT: Right, changes done. Gonna go watch TV now.
    Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2010-12-16 at 06:56 PM.

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    Gibbering Mouther


    Guessing you missed that. Or you're ignoring me. ;)

    Lammasu
    • I encourage you, again, to put the notation on fine manipulation (and as a consequence, ability to cast spells) under Lammasu Body, rather than the later Divine Connection. Consider the confusion of a player who takes a level 1 dip and doesn't read stuff beyond that, multiclasses into cleric and then wonders if he can cast spells with somatic components (or assumes he can't).
    • Also under Divine Connection, "From second Level may cast spells" is missing words and reads awkwardly.
    • I'd probably stress that a Lammasu is capable of fine manipulation but isn't capable of using weapons... unless you want greatsword wielding Lammasu.
    • Spelling error in manoeuverability is still there... or is it a weird spelling from the UK or something?
    • Greater Lammasu Magic: In my previous critique, I stressed you probably want to stress that greater invisibility replaces invisibility, for clarity, to prevent confusion, and such. As is, with the current wording (which is a little haphazard), a player might well assume they get a full complement of both:
      Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Bard
      They may now duplicate Greater Invisibility (though they may still use the normal Invisibility effect if they wish).
    • Needs a little bit of tidying up as far as wording and a few bits of vagueness/confusion, but overall, a hair's breadth from getting my vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    ...

    Lammasu
    • I encourage you, again, to put the notation on fine manipulation (and as a consequence, ability to cast spells) under Lammasu Body, rather than the later Divine Connection. Consider the confusion of a player who takes a level 1 dip and doesn't read stuff beyond that, multiclasses into cleric and then wonders if he can cast spells with somatic components (or assumes he can't).

      Ok
    • Also under Divine Connection, "From second Level may cast spells" is missing words and reads awkwardly.

      Will do.
    • I'd probably stress that a Lammasu is capable of fine manipulation but isn't capable of using weapons... unless you want greatsword wielding Lammasu.

      Cool.
    • Spelling error in manoeuverability is still there... or is it a weird spelling from the UK or something?

      Apparently so. My spell checker keeps telling me it's got an o in it.
    • Greater Lammasu Magic: In my previous critique, I stressed you probably want to stress that greater invisibility replaces invisibility, for clarity, to prevent confusion, and such. As is, with the current wording (which is a little haphazard), a player might well assume they get a full complement of both:

      Ahh, see what you mean now.
    • Needs a little bit of tidying up as far as wording and a few bits of vagueness/confusion, but overall, a hair's breadth from getting my vote.
    These words are irrelevant but apparently the site doesn't recognise my bolded bits as typed characters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    These words are irrelevant but apparently the site doesn't recognise my bolded bits as typed characters.
    It's anything within the quote field that's discounted against your character minimum. You could write a book rivaling war and peace, but if it was in quote fields, the site would think it wasn't yours. Your best bet is to use lots of little quotes, with your responses in between.

    Putting a vote forward for Lammasu. That's in addition to my earlier votes for Wendigo and Maug (the latter of which needs a repost with spelling/grammar fixes).
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-12-16 at 07:11 PM.

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    Edited up the Gibbering Mouther a bit, although I had edited it since that critique so it might still have some issues.
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    Just FYI, Gorgon has nominated the purple worm Here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Dwarven Ancestor:
    • Thought you touched it up, but issues/suggestions from this post haven't been implemented, so I'll postpone judgment.
    • Needs revision
    This is the current version of it, which is different than the one you critiqued.

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    My replies in Bold.
    Ancestral Knowledge could/should be used to count towards prestige classes and variant class options (so one might be able to use it for dungeon crasher?) in addition to feats.


    Regarding Dungeoncrasher: The dwarf ancestor is a good setup for it but the character would still need to take fighter levels because dungeoncrasher is about sacrificing fighter bonus feats, not taking a feat that requires a specific amount of fighter levels.

    2 levels of Fighter to grab the first bit of Dungeoncrasher would be ECL 8. Normally that's when a Fighter 8 would already have the advanced version of dungeoncrasher, but the dwarf ancestor has more defenses than that Fighter would have, so it's a trade off.


    Dwarven Warcraft - Spellcheck is your friend. 'penaly' should be 'penalty'.
    [I really like what you did with this ability. As far as I can remember, my initial complaints about the Dwarven Ancestor had to do with the 'tank' nature of it, without the ability to force enemies to deal with it (so you were tough, but enemies would just beat up your friends and ignore you, then focus their efforts on you, or leave you to drag your buddies to the temple for resurrection). This works nicely. Kudos.

    Dwarven Hammer - So, uh, as compared to a rogue of equivalent level, you get their sneak attack, minus the prerequisites, with gravy, that just doesn't scale as well, as a drawback? I'm not sure I see the design intent here. This needs to scale, and it needs to not eclipse low level rogues in effective bonus damage.

    Stone Warcraft - "Any sort of movement" is really vague, and this leads to arguments. Just off the top of my head, a dwarf standing on a balcony in Sharn, city of towers. An enemy falls from a ledge above, past the dwarven ancestor leading to 4+ attacks of opportunity? Do these attacks count against your per-round limit?


    Fixd the typo. Also, Dwarven & Stone Warcraft & Dwarven & Stone Hammer have been completely changed.


    Still don't like how the (now staggered) strength bonuses add to the full BAB.

    I don't think it's a big deal, especially now that it doesn't have attacks that do +xd6 extra damage as well. ::shrug::


    Overall, a pretty good entry that needs a few screws tightened here and there, but actually stands out with a unique role & methodology among the monster classes.
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