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    Default Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    I'm considering houseruling Dragonheart Mage to have full casting progression. Considering that it is fairly weaker than, say, Incantrix or Iot7FV, I don't think it should be a big deal. What say you?

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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    Well, that depends on whether you think Incantatrix and Iot7V are too powerful or not. If you think they're just right and Tier 1 casters being even more insane is okay, if should be fine to push Dragonheart Mages up to full casting. Otherwise, you should evaluate based on the balance point you're actually looking for.
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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Well, that depends on whether you think Incantatrix and Iot7V are too powerful or not. If you think they're just right and Tier 1 casters being even more insane is okay, if should be fine to push Dragonheart Mages up to full casting. Otherwise, you should evaluate based on the balance point you're actually looking for.
    Even without removing spellcasting, the Dragonheart Mage class itself isn't extremely strong. It grants some draconic bonus feats and a breath weapon. It's nowhere near the versatility and power level of either of the above, I just used them as examples.

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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    My point stands. If you think those are good examples of an acceptable power level, than giving the Dragonheart Mage full casting is no problem. Otherwise, it depends on what you think an acceptable power level is.

    Assuming you're fine with sorcerers and core and all of that, I can't see any problems with bumping Dragonheart Mage up to full casting. It still won't be as powerful as some of the other caster PrCs out there, so it shouldn't be any big deal.
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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Assuming you're fine with sorcerers and core and all of that, I can't see any problems with bumping Dragonheart Mage up to full casting. It still won't be as powerful as some of the other caster PrCs out there, so it shouldn't be any big deal.
    I wasn't really debating your point, it is true.

    This paragraph is basically what I was getting at.

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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    Considering that base class Wizards already get several bonus feats, and all the "good" prestige classes also grant bonus feats, it seems more than fair to let Dragonheart Mage have full casting when all it gets is a few bonus feats.

    Note of funny: the class upgrades your Draconic Breath damage, but you lose enough casting that the lower available spell slots bring you down to the same damage as if you hadn't taken the class, last time I checked. Way to go.
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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    The class is *INCREDIBLY* lackluster, and doesn't offer anything worth losing caster-levels over. And considering that 2d6/spell level isn't impressive without a carrier effect or metabreath access, I'd say the class needs a better upgrade than full-casting. And while the flavor is "cool", you could better mileage by simply casting spells, such as meteor swarm(does 32d6 damage compared to a fully-leveled DHM's 27d6 breath weapon from the same slot, and this is *bad* spell selection).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Note of funny: the class upgrades your Draconic Breath damage, but you lose enough casting that the lower available spell slots bring you down to the same damage as if you hadn't taken the class, last time I checked. Way to go.
    That's untrue.

    At level 16, a pure sorcerer or wizard would have 8th level spells, dealing 16d6 damage with their breath weapon. A dragonheart mage of the same level would deal 21d6 damage. At level 11, a pure sorcerer/wizard would deal 10d6/12d6(average 35/42), while a DHM would deal 8d8/10d8(average 36/45), and that's the worst-case scenario, CL-wise. Admittedly, there's a raw deal at the earlier levels, but by the time the damage dice start kicking in, it he comes out slightly ahead.

    (Also, ignore the wizard mention above, I forgot that they don't qualify for the prestige class, and iirc, not for the feat either).
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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    The class is *INCREDIBLY* lackluster, and doesn't offer anything worth losing caster-levels over. And considering that 2d6/spell level isn't impressive without a carrier effect or metabreath access, I'd say the class needs a better upgrade than full-casting. And while the flavor is "cool", you could better mileage by simply casting spells, such as meteor swarm(does 32d6 damage compared to a fully-leveled DHM's 27d6 breath weapon from the same slot, and this is *bad* spell selection).
    Agreed, I'm still considering a way to make it more desirable. Really, there are only a couple decent draconic feats to take, the most obvious being Draconic Aura (Energy) and Draconic Aura (Senses). After that...bleh. I'm a little too busy right now to really mull it over good. Any suggestions? Full casting, then what?

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    Default Re: Dragonheart Mage houserule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    That's untrue. *snip*.
    Huh. I was working from memory, so I guess my calculations from when I last looked at it must have been bad. Probably somewhere between expected levels and proper averages. Oh well. Still extremely lackluster, as you said.
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