I want to like GURPS

[Valameer]

I really do. But every time I try to use it I get stumped.

I love the core mechanics. I love the level of realism vs. ease of play. I love the modular advanced rules. I love how finished characters feel 'alive'.

However, I want to run a psuedo-medieval setting. Low magic, similar to AD&D second edition or GRRM's Westeros setting.

I hate how advantages from every possible setting are squished into the main book instead of separated by genre. I hate how there are no good settings for the system, only DIY stuff. I hate how long it takes to make characters - especially NPCs. I hate how unintuitive it feels to design new monster templates. Above all, I hate the bloated skill system.

So - what do I do? I could try to go through the books and pull out all the stuff I like, and trim the rest. Make a document, and e-mail it to my group to use? But that seems like it would take a very long time. Time I could use putting together a wonderful D&D campaign, since D&D always runs straight out of the box. GURPS always makes me blanch and turn back to D&D 'cause at least D&D has a focus.

But I'd like to get away from class-based, level-based systems, and explore something "closer to reality." What I mean by that is... imagine D&D is a Wuxia film. Now think about A Game of Thrones. I want the system that is to D&D what A Game of Thrones is to Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

GURPS feels like a close fit - but it's unwieldiness always puts me off.

Is there a more focused set of rules that does what GURPS does? Or has anyone trimmed down GURPS before so that it handles low fantasy? Please help me like this system - or one similar to it!

[kyoryu]

I really do. But every time I try to use it I get stumped.

I love the core mechanics. I love the level of realism vs. ease of play. I love the modular advanced rules. I love how finished characters feel 'alive'.

However, I want to run a psuedo-medieval setting. Low magic, similar to AD&D second edition or GRRM's Westeros setting.

I hate how advantages from every possible setting are squished into the main book instead of separated by genre. I hate how there are no good settings for the system, only DIY stuff. I hate how long it takes to make characters - especially NPCs. I hate how unintuitive it feels to design new monster templates. Above all, I hate the bloated skill system.

So - what do I do? I could try to go through the books and pull out all the stuff I like, and trim the rest. Make a document, and e-mail it to my group to use? But that seems like it would take a very long time. Time I could use putting together a wonderful D&D campaign, since D&D always runs straight out of the box. GURPS always makes me blanch and turn back to D&D 'cause at least D&D has a focus.

But I'd like to get away from class-based, level-based systems, and explore something "closer to reality." What I mean by that is... imagine D&D is a Wuxia film. Now think about A Game of Thrones. I want the system that is to D&D what A Game of Thrones is to Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

GURPS feels like a close fit - but it's unwieldiness always puts me off.

Is there a more focused set of rules that does what GURPS does? Or has anyone trimmed down GURPS before so that it handles low fantasy? Please help me like this system - or one similar to it!

Start with the Basic Set, + Magic. Don't start with all the books, they're mostly unnecessary. Work from a minimal standpoint, and then add more if you need it, rather than starting with all of the books and then trimming down.

GURPS does low fantasy pretty well, in fact - it was pretty well designed to do that, and that's probably the genre it's best at.

[warmachine]

The Dungeon Fantasy series?

[TalonDemonKing]

The dungeon fantasy series is totally what you're looking for. Rulebook 1 and 3 have classes and races respectively, so they're totally worth picking up. They carry templates (25-75 for races, 250 for classes).

The templates are focused around the classes that they are (Melee skills for Knight, Spells for casters) but allow alot of free room to pick and choose.

Personally, I run my games at 325 points. This allows people to buy the most expensive race template, but for those who choose cheaper races (Humans, for example cost 0 points) to sort of get some better skills or advantages for themselves.

[Cybren]

I hate how advantages from every possible setting are squished into the main book instead of separated by genre.

It's literally impossible to know every trait that is needed for each genre. And there will be so much overlap.

I hate how there are no good settings for the system, only DIY stuff.

What are talking about?There's TONS!

I hate how long it takes to make characters - especially NPCs. I hate how unintuitive it feels to design new monster templates. Above all, I hate the bloated skill system.

This is in general a lot more subjective but remember that hwen you make an NPC you don't have to make them with a fully loaded out character sheet.

[a_humble_lich]

I agree that I wish GURPS had divided the advantages and skill better (like they did in 3rd Edition). With that said it's not as hard as you think. First I'd have a look at GURPS Banestorm, which is a very good Low Fantasy setting.

As far as advantages goes, I would make a list of what is allowed, but that isn't as hard as you think. First, supernatural and racial advantages are already marked. By just forbidding all supernatural/exotic advantages you have a fairly realistic game. Then do a quick flip through the advantages section and choose which supernatural advantages you want (or which other ones you don't). And make it clear to your players that this is a fantasy game so they shouldn't take things like G-Tolerance. Same goes for skills and disadvantages.

For Example: a_humble_lich's fantasy game
Character Creation rules
--Tech level 3
--All races in Banestorm are allowed
--No Supernatural/Exotic advantages/disadvantages are allowed with the following exceptions:

1. Magery (up to level 3)
2. Blessed
3. Magic Resistance
4. Oracle (Elves only)
5. Magic Susceptibility

--Weapon Master and Trained by a Master are not allowed.
--The spells from the basic set are all commonly known. Spells from GURPS Magic require a 5 pt Unusual background per spell.

That is a basic low fantasy game.

[Ragitsu]

Above all, I hate the bloated skill system.

More options = bad, or...?

I mean, I know there's quite a bit to choose from, but I say variety is a strength of GURPS, rather than a weakness.

[FelixG]

Best part of GURPS: When your players really piss you off you caan yell: "THATS IT! NOW WE ARE PLAYING GURPS BUNNIES AND BURROWS!!!"

[Ragitsu]

Best part of GURPS: When your players really piss you off you caan yell: "THATS IT! NOW WE ARE PLAYING GURPS BUNNIES AND BURROWS!!!"

I really wish that was updated to 4th Edition.

[Zen Master]

It's been quite a while since I looked at GURPS, but my real problem with it was that there was a sort of formula to win. Basically it could be expressed as 'mounted knight kills all.' The multiplier to damage after penetrating armor meant that there was basically no way to survive a mounted charge.

Now, for realism that's not much off. But for gameplay, it's ... well, I want my fantasy hero to be able to survive that.

[The Rose Dragon]

The multiplier to damage after penetrating armor meant that there was basically no way to survive a mounted charge.

There is a very simple way to survive it, actually: don't get hit.

GURPS is, as far as I can tell, quite lethal once you get hit. So, the solution is to avoid getting hit.

[Ragitsu]

It's been quite a while since I looked at GURPS, but my real problem with it was that there was a sort of formula to win. Basically it could be expressed as 'mounted knight kills all.' The multiplier to damage after penetrating armor meant that there was basically no way to survive a mounted charge.

Now, for realism that's not much off. But for gameplay, it's ... well, I want my fantasy hero to be able to survive that.

There are probably strategies to shut down a mounted warrior, but none are coming to mind right now.

[Zen Master]

There is a very simple way to survive it, actually: don't get hit.

GURPS is, as far as I can tell, quite lethal once you get hit. So, the solution is to avoid getting hit.

I think there's a dodge mechanic? But that's relying on chance and luck - and should that fail, once more, you're dead.

There are probably strategies to shut down a mounted warrior, but none are coming to mind right now.

Yes, there are. But not everyone can be mages or archers. Also, those are far from sure-fire methods.

No - the very best way is to be a mounted knight and win initiative. Well, or walled fortifications.

Another way is control: Scrawnier horses, bigger shields and heavier armor. But one the one hand that doesn't really work all that well (because players want big horses and hefty lances and stuff, so it still spirals out of control), and on the other, I honestly feel the author should publish a system that basically works.

Um ... still. Gurps is fine in many other ways. This, however, is why I don't play it. Character generation was awesome, actually.

[Ragitsu]

Yes, there are. But not everyone can be mages or archers. Also, those are far from sure-fire methods.

No - the very best way is to be a mounted knight and win initiative. Well, or walled fortifications.

Another way is control: Scrawnier horses, bigger shields and heavier armor. But one the one hand that doesn't really work all that well (because players want big horses and hefty lances and stuff, so it still spirals out of control), and on the other, I honestly feel the author should publish a system that basically works.

Um ... still. Gurps is fine in many other ways. This, however, is why I don't play it. Character generation was awesome, actually.

Considering prospective players haven't left the system in droves solely over an imbalance of mounted warriors, I am sure there is a factor/are factors we are overlooking.

[Yuki Akuma]

There's a reason it's hard to take out a mounted warrior if you're on foot.

It's hard in real life, too.

[Yora]

There are probably strategies to shut down a mounted warrior, but none are coming to mind right now.

Don't fight him in an open field.

[warmachine]

If you want medieval PCs to be able to survive mounted charges but still want them to be attacked by mounted warriors, this sounds like a more cinematic style and there are plenty of cinematic rules to choose from. Perhaps the one of negating damage by spending 1FP and losing the next action.

[TalonDemonKing]

Mage, archers, anyone with a machine-gun type weapon.

I think spears get some kind of bonus to being charged against. Caltrops can probably cause some damage too, as it sues the horses strength against it.

[valadil]

The thing about GURPS is that it's not a game like D&D. It's a framework for making a game like D&D. The burden of the GM is to choose which subset of GURPS you'll be using. That's what defines your game.

Dungeon Fantasy is a very good start. It gives you classes and races in the form of templates which have a fixed cost. I think you'll like these because they end up limited what skills are available to everyone. So you could slap a race and class together and then spend points raising the skills your class bought you.

[Psyx]

However, I want to run a psuedo-medieval setting. Low magic, similar to AD&D second edition or GRRM's Westeros setting.

Then I'd recommend WFRP 2nd edition. It sounds exactly what you want.
Or Riddle of Steel, of course...


I've never got on with GURPS either.

[jpreem]

Don't know much about GURPS, but I guess for most of the campaigns in most of RPG-s when when you are standing in the middle of the open field waiting for a lancer to hit you in your chest then you are not doing it right.
For a lot of levels a lance charge to the chest is an instakill in DD too. When you are a low-level guy then probably a hit from a 1-2 level warr with horse and a lance will kill you. When you are on a higher level then the lancer has to have some levels on him also but still it is a Very deadly melee option. (Power attack + lance in two hands + spirited charge).
When you have a character in DD who can take such a hit in the chest then s/he is a much much larger than life character. So it wouldn't be relevant in any kind of realistic campaign - tho to create such a character in GURPS - you can just give him/her a lot of points and access to super(natural) powers.
(Being able to function after a square hit from a lance charge definetly is supernatural)

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

This advice is based on personal preference, but I would recommended you just played a house-ruled game of D&D instead of GURPS.
Do it like in Call of Cthulhu d20, where the players can choose from a range of class features and make their own class. It works well in CoC d20, so I don't see why it wouldn't in D&D.

[Zen Master]

... anyone with a machine-gun type weapon ...

Well, clearly, but that's hardly fair on the knight, is it?

DM: The knight charges.
Player: Alright - I mow him down with my M41a 10 mm pulse rifle. That'll teach the bloody bastard to show up in the wrong time and age!

[obliged_salmon]

For Westeros-type setting, I cannot recommend the Burning Wheel system highly enough. It's gritty, it uses a "duel of wits" social combat mechanism that looks and feels the same as their regular combat system (neither of which you actually need in order to play). I ran a Westeros game with this and we all felt right at home there with BW, right out of the box.

You could also try, like, the Game of Throne RPG. I've heard that's pretty good.

[Valameer]

I'll elaborate more. I've looked at Dungeon Fantasy, and it seems great. But it's a step back towards a class-based, mindless-monsters-in-dungeons setting. It's GURPS playing at D&D, but I would rather the lower point characters in a lower fantasy setting. I'll agree it's a far better starting point than the Basic Set, though.

*settings*

IOU is a kitchen sink. Banestorm is a kitchen sink. Prime Directive, Transhuman and Traveller are all sci-fi with varying degrees of weirdness factor. Conan is the one setting that is both fantasy and doesn't try to accomodate for time-travelers and space aliens.

To me, GURPS settings like Banestorm (the setting I'm most familiar with) really highlight the weakness of the game - no, not tons of options. Lack of focus. Trying too hard to leave everything available. It weakens the versimiltude in the setting. Rarely do people want their chocolate ice cream, hamburger, apples, and potato chips all in the same casserole. By comparison, Eberron manages to have lots available while maintaining focus on a theme.

More options = bad, or...?

I mean, I know there's quite a bit to choose from, but I say variety is a strength of GURPS, rather than a weakness.

Less focus = bad. More overlapping skills = bad. More useless skills = bad. Skills like carousing, panhandling, hobby skills, area knowledge: hometown vs area knowledge: home country. It doesn't seem like I should need rules for any of this stuff. Since these skills won't ever really come in handy, I can expect my players to skip spending their precious points on them.

I can think of two options: 1) I give skills like carousing or hobby skills away for free if it's appropriate to the character. 2) I cut through the skill lists to make a "pertinent skills" list that throws many of these useless skills into the background where they belong. Even spells are guilty of having too little distinction between them. Restore sight, restore smell, restore hearing, restore speech, etc. vs. restoration, which covers them all and more.

Sure, restoration is VH instead of H, but who's honestly not going to spend one more point for a spell that isn't so specialized? In 3rd edition the "restore X" spells didn't exist, you only had restoration. Why did they think they had to add in all these other spells? The only reason I can think of is to pad the book out - so they can say "150 new spells!" If you like the addition of restore speech for more options, then why not restore hand or restore arm? This is my problem with GURPS in a nutshell. These spells aren't useful options; they're needless options.

They should say "150 new spells that do a fraction of what the old spells did. But the old spells are still there, because it wasn't a balance thing."

Then I'd recommend WFRP 2nd edition. It sounds exactly what you want.
Or Riddle of Steel, of course...

I will look at both of those, thank you. I've heard good things about Riddle of Steel in particular.

I do enjoy the main concepts of GURPS, but I just hate how much work it takes to get it to what you want it to do. Dungeon Fantasy goes some way to streamlining this, but it's not nearly far enough. I think if GURPS published a (generic-ish) fantasy setting book that included all the skills, advantages, disadvantages and equipment you would need printed right in the book it would help give the system the focus it needs to shine.

For Westeros-type setting, I cannot recommend the Burning Wheel system highly enough.

I'll give that a look too, thanks.

You could also try, like, the Game of Throne RPG. I've heard that's pretty good.

Well, I guess Westeros-inspired is more important than Westeros proper. Otherwise it might feel like a lesson in acting. "Did I do Daenerys right? Did you guys think I sold that battle cry?"

[Psyx]

WFRP2 is probably more accessible than RoS (which is out of print), and it does have a good number of optional books available too for both players and GM (but mostly GM, to be honest!).

There is a new version of WFRP out, but it's quite pricey and I have no experience with it.

I used to also like Runequest 2nd Edition, but that's a very old game.

L5r is plenty-gritty, but obviously Oriental-focused. There is a European-Renaissancey version though called Seven Seas.

[Tyndmyr]

I hate how advantages from every possible setting are squished into the main book instead of separated by genre. I hate how there are no good settings for the system, only DIY stuff. I hate how long it takes to make characters - especially NPCs. I hate how unintuitive it feels to design new monster templates. Above all, I hate the bloated skill system.

This is about my experiences as well. Sure, you really can do anything in GURPS. If another game exists that specializes in what you want to do, though, it'll likely be much easier to use that system than GURPS.

Low magic, psuedo-medieval fantasy? You want 7th Sea. It is exactly that, and it's a very easy system to pick up and run.

[warmachine]

I love the modular advanced rules.
I hate how there are no good settings for the system, only DIY stuff.

I love how finished characters feel 'alive'.
I hate how long it takes to make characters - especially NPCs.

You do realise that the sentiments in each pair oppose each other? You love a toolkit approach but you hate the lack of its opposite, integrated, tightly focused approach. You love the ability to richly describe characters but hate the effort needed to richly describe characters. Desiring perfection is good but, practically, no system can achieve it. You're gonna have to compromise and decide which design approach you prefer the most: toolkit or off-the-shelf, rich or simple characters stats.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I also highly recommend the Basic Roleplaying System.
It's a lot better than GURPS and it's very versatile.

[Valameer]

You do realise that the sentiments in each pair oppose each other? You love a toolkit approach but you hate the lack of its opposite, integrated, tightly focused approach. You love the ability to richly describe characters but hate the effort needed to richly describe characters. Desiring perfection is good but, practically, no system can achieve it. You're gonna have to compromise and decide which design approach you prefer the most: toolkit or off-the-shelf, rich or simple characters stats.

You misunderstand.

Want: Optional rules to increase detail where I want it.
Do Not Want: Lack of focus in rules set - I can't hand the book to my players and say "make characters." I'd have to hover over their shoulder to make sure they didn't come up with a six legged baboon from Mars who's a leading member of the calligraphy community. Ok - more realistic - to make sure they didn't accidently grab some TL4 stuff or nerf themselves with too much TL2 stuff when we are playing a TL3 game.

Want: Character building options that can cover wealth, attractiveness, phobias, and quirks. Quirks are a very good touch.
Do Not Want: Too many needless or useless skills and advantages. Too many slow mechanics such as determining final skill values.
Want: A Monster Manual. To be fair, they probably have this out there somewhere, though. One that didn't try to nail every TL and setting would be best.

GURPS does some things really well - and over does others. I really like how simple and effective the basic character abilities are (ST, DX, IQ, HT). I like the basic mechanic of roll 3d6, compare it to skill. But I don't like how they tried to include every single skill they could possibly come up with in the skills section. I'm surprised walking, brushing teeth, and tying shoelaces aren't in there. They would fit in seamlessly alongside some of the other skills. I don't like how the basic book has no setting or focus, and has rules for spaceships beside rules for jousting.

I think it's unfortunate that SJG didn't decide to make a "GURPS Fantasy" book with all the relevant rules within, then a separate "GURPS Space" book. Like D20 Modern, Past, and Future - you can use the same rules across all three, but it makes it so much easier to read when it's split up.

I want to make it work. But every time I get halfway through I stop myself and grab something that doesn't take all the effort to work. Dungeon Fantasy does a lot of the work for me, and I like that. It's exactly what GURPS needs more of.