A Grand Alliance [NWoD]

[Admiral Squish]

So, my brother just finished running a Changeling: the Lost campaign. Instead of the planned final battle, however, another player, (who has a law degree, which may explain things) managed to talk his way out of a battle with the queen of the Miami freehold's autumn court. But the interesting part comes in HOW he talked her out of it.

Namaa had picked up a few tricks involving vampiric obtenebration and, with that in mind, he successfully argued that she's already seen the power of the other forces of the world. That, perhaps, the other supernaturals would be able to aid in the eternal war against the gentry of arcadia. That the power of secrets gleaned in the dark would be NOTHING compared the kind of power one could gain if the channels were open. The floodgates would open if the changeling could make contact with the other supernaturals, and together, the supernaturals could solve so many of their problems. The changelings could be a common link to unite all supernaturals under a single banner. Ogres and beasts share much in common with the werewolves. Darklings and fairest, the vampires. Wizened, the prometheans and mages.

The campaign ended, and all present have shown interest in a sequel of sorts, one that would be involved in bringing this proposal to light.

So, playground, I want your opinion. Is this even possible? What would the implications of such an alliance be? Would it solve problems? Make them worse? Could a changeling learn a mage's magic? Could a vampire embrace a changeling? Would prometheans be able to reanimate werewolves as more of their own? Would there be war? Would there be peace? What kind of impact could this have on the world as a whole?

[Kesnit]

Is this even possible?

The fluff of the races working together would work. But remember, each of the supernaturals sees the world differently. Vampires are not by nature ones to work in groups. At some point, it is likely a Kindred would see a better opportunity elsewhere and back off (or worse, betray everyone). Created cause Disquiet, and that includes on other supernaturals. This is why they move around a lot, and could raise issues if a Created DIDN'T move on. Finally, Mages are just more powerful than the other supernaturals. Their powers are often less clearly laid out, and they can learn every power in their books.

Also...

Could a changeling learn a mage's magic? Could a vampire embrace a changeling? Would prometheans be able to reanimate werewolves as more of their own?

IIRC, only one template is allowed. Since Mage's use something to power their magic that Changlings cannot see, there would be no way to power that magic. A Changling who was Embraced would become a Vampire and lose their Changling template. Same with Forsaken --> Created. There's also the issue that the only way to become a Changling is to be changed by Arcadia, which I doubt most supernaturals would be willing to do!

BTW, you commented that the Kiths of Changlings mirror the Vampire Clans. That's intentional; WW did it on purpose. If your group wants to say there is a metaphysical reason behind it, there is nothing stopping you, of course!

[Aux-Ash]

It is of course up to the storyteller running the chronicle, but in my humble opinion: no. Such an alliance would not be possible. Temporary alliances of the "I help you, you help me"-kind would work, but not a grand alliance versus the gentry.

For several reasons but the first and primary one being: Only the Lost have a real reason to fear the Gentry. The others are largely unaffacted. They don't have a need to band up against some mysterious force that only the Lost knows of (and what threat they pose is also unclear... it's apparently bad... but the Lost don't actually, as a group, know exactly what it is).

The other reason is the greatly varied interest of the other supernaturals:
The vampires will be busy with the dance macabre, make allies with one group and you'll be enemies to another group. The latter would no doubt declare it to be a breach of the tradition of the masquerade if it served their interests and use it to get rid of both the Lost that knows and their opponents.
The only vampire groups that I can think of that'd be remotely interested would be the Ordo Dracul and similar, but they'd be in it for the mysteries and to try to learn more of the vampiric condition (and would betray the Lost in a heartbeat to pursue that).

The Forsaken aren't really a big group but many small groups that keep up the delicate balance of spirits, being the guardians of the gauntlet. Most likely they'll just be busy with that, at best, If you're unlucky you'll trigger their infamous tempers or worse, look like a disturbance to them. That said, it's probably easier to get individual packs to join an alliance, but woe to you if you tricked them into it.

The awakened would probably be very curious. But like with some vampires, they'd only be in it for knowledge. Also remember that a fair bit of mages think they get their powers from Arcadia (wether it's the same one or not is beside the point, it's going to cause problems on both sides of the alliance). A fair few of them are probably going to be concerned about paradox and similar and like the vampires, try to eliminate the knowledge of their community. Not to mention fearing that the hedge and the abyss is the same place...

The created cannot be allied with. Their very existance drives you to destroy them through the animosity. If that does not cause problem with the Lost consider that the vampires and werewolves have much more trouble controlling their instincts. Every time you meet a Created the animosity worsens, drives you to lash out against everything until the Promethean have been destroyed or left.

I don't know much about the Geists, maybe allying with them would work.

And of course, the hunters are as likely to kill you as listen to you. But if you got them on your side they'd probably be the most reliable allies... but you'd probably have to trick them that the Gentry is a direct and active threat to humanity.

The third problem is that you have to find them. It's not like they all mark their locations with signposts and if you get close to finding them they'll probably relocate (or kill you).

Of course any alliance is moot because all supernaturals combined are still less than the Fae. Also, if it ever comes down to a fight, remembre that it will only be the Fae that thinks that sounds fun and exciting that will come... and if that does not scare you then you don't know enough about the Fae.

That said... making a chronicle about trying to forge an alliance like that is definantely an interesting idea. If only to find that the idea is very implausible and then dealing with the fallout of that among the courts.

as for combining supernaturals: You can only have one supernatural template. Trying to combine them always fails (werewolves and mages cannot be embraced etc etc.)

[Admiral Squish]

Just two responses and we've already got two completely different answers. I'll respond to both in turn with bold.

The fluff of the races working together would work. But remember, each of the supernaturals sees the world differently. Vampires are not by nature ones to work in groups. At some point, it is likely a Kindred would see a better opportunity elsewhere and back off (or worse, betray everyone). Created cause Disquiet, and that includes on other supernaturals. This is why they move around a lot, and could raise issues if a Created DIDN'T move on. Finally, Mages are just more powerful than the other supernaturals. Their powers are often less clearly laid out, and they can learn every power in their books.

But of course, these differences are to be expected. The only major issue is the disquiet, because that can't be prevented or dealt with. The rest are social issues, which can be prevented, resolved, or otherwise handled by the creative use of Pledges, which are a really awesome mechanic.

Also...
IIRC, only one template is allowed. Since Mage's use something to power their magic that Changlings cannot see, there would be no way to power that magic. A Changling who was Embraced would become a Vampire and lose their Changling template. Same with Forsaken --> Created. There's also the issue that the only way to become a Changling is to be changed by Arcadia, which I doubt most supernaturals would be willing to do!

That does make sense. My bro was coming up with some explanations the last I saw him, like, a changeling's soul isn't sturdy enough to survive the Embrace and things along those lines. Namaa was using vampiric powers with the help of Bloodroot, so I'm assuming there is going to be SOME blurring of the lines.

BTW, you commented that the Kiths of Changlings mirror the Vampire Clans. That's intentional; WW did it on purpose. If your group wants to say there is a metaphysical reason behind it, there is nothing stopping you, of course!

Well, I wasn't saying the mimicked the vamps. I honestly don't know enough about the vamps to comment on that. I was commenting that the changelings are basically shaped by pure, maddening chaos, and that leads to them being all over the place. The beasts and ogres resemble the werewolves. The darklings and the fairest resemble the vampires. The elementals and the wizened are the closest to the created. The wizened also share some similarities with the mages. So, while werewolves and vampires are extremely different, the changelings would be able to act as a sort of link between the two worlds.

It is of course up to the storyteller running the chronicle, but in my humble opinion: no. Such an alliance would not be possible. Temporary alliances of the "I help you, you help me"-kind would work, but not a grand alliance versus the gentry.

For several reasons but the first and primary one being: Only the Lost have a real reason to fear the Gentry. The others are largely unaffacted. They don't have a need to band up against some mysterious force that only the Lost knows of (and what threat they pose is also unclear... it's apparently bad... but the Lost don't actually, as a group, know exactly what it is).

Well, there was mention of a massive storm that would 'make the big blow look like a three-speed fan on a humid day'. This is, of course, a cover for a massive invasion of the gentry who intend to abduct pretty much the entire southern half of florida at once, scouring it clean of mortal and supernatural alike. This might be enough to convince at least the supernatural residents of southern florida to cooperate, at least briefly.

The other reason is the greatly varied interest of the other supernaturals:
The vampires will be busy with the dance macabre, make allies with one group and you'll be enemies to another group. The latter would no doubt declare it to be a breach of the tradition of the masquerade if it served their interests and use it to get rid of both the Lost that knows and their opponents.
The only vampire groups that I can think of that'd be remotely interested would be the Ordo Dracul and similar, but they'd be in it for the mysteries and to try to learn more of the vampiric condition (and would betray the Lost in a heartbeat to pursue that).

Well, there's the changeling pledge mechanic to manage these things. The changelings start bold, forging a pledge-strengthened alliance with the strongest vampires of miami. The pledge would force both parties to come to the aid of the other. The strongest vampires and the strongest of the changelings working together would be a very difficult force to oppose. Eventually, I could see changelings holding pledges to most of the powerful of vampire courts, and functioning as a sort of buffer between them. The pledge itself would prevent the vampires from fighting the changelings, but the changelings would similarly be bound to defend the attacked.

The Forsaken aren't really a big group but many small groups that keep up the delicate balance of spirits, being the guardians of the gauntlet. Most likely they'll just be busy with that, at best, If you're unlucky you'll trigger their infamous tempers or worse, look like a disturbance to them. That said, it's probably easier to get individual packs to join an alliance, but woe to you if you tricked them into it.

Well, I happen to be playing an Ogre who basically resembles a seven-foot man-panther when viewed with true sight. I think the forsaken would likely be the easiest to get to our side, at least one pack at a time, since their spiritual side would be greatly opposed to the massive upheaval and unbalancing the Fey would cause in their storm. I don't expect there to be a werewolf king to deal with, but any additional arms against the gentry would certainly help.

The awakened would probably be very curious. But like with some vampires, they'd only be in it for knowledge. Also remember that a fair bit of mages think they get their powers from Arcadia (wether it's the same one or not is beside the point, it's going to cause problems on both sides of the alliance). A fair few of them are probably going to be concerned about paradox and similar and like the vampires, try to eliminate the knowledge of their community. Not to mention fearing that the hedge and the abyss is the same place...

I could see a whole lot of awkward moments... 'hey, You've been to arcadia? Awesome! I bet it was great!' 'Actually, I was used as a hunting dog by a insane abomination for two decades.' 'Oh... Awk-waaaard.'

As for eliminating those who know of the mages, the changelings would be able to offer the mages supernatural pledges that actually make it very, very difficult for them to reveal the other supernaturals.

The created cannot be allied with. Their very existance drives you to destroy them through the animosity. If that does not cause problem with the Lost consider that the vampires and werewolves have much more trouble controlling their instincts. Every time you meet a Created the animosity worsens, drives you to lash out against everything until the Promethean have been destroyed or left.

Yeah, I see this one being a bit of an issue...

I don't know much about the Geists, maybe allying with them would work.

I honestly hadn't heard of them. I shall go raid a borders soon in search of the information.

And of course, the hunters are as likely to kill you as listen to you. But if you got them on your side they'd probably be the most reliable allies... but you'd probably have to trick them that the Gentry is a direct and active threat to humanity.

Well, the hunters might be willing to help the changelings if they knew of the storm coming. That's a lot of mortals in danger if they decide to ignore the changelings or kill them.

The third problem is that you have to find them. It's not like they all mark their locations with signposts and if you get close to finding them they'll probably relocate (or kill you).

I suppose, but then again, is a vampire court REALLY going to just pick up stakes and relocate because a couple of changelings are poking around?

Of course any alliance is moot because all supernaturals combined are still less than the Fae. Also, if it ever comes down to a fight, remembre that it will only be the Fae that thinks that sounds fun and exciting that will come... and if that does not scare you then you don't know enough about the Fae.

Well, all the supernaturals together stand a better chance of repelling the gentry than the changelings alone, no? If the storm is coming regardless, then the alliance would definitely be advisable.

That said... making a chronicle about trying to forge an alliance like that is definantely an interesting idea. If only to find that the idea is very implausible and then dealing with the fallout of that among the courts.

I'm sure it will be interesting, however it ends up going.

as for combining supernaturals: You can only have one supernatural template. Trying to combine them always fails (werewolves and mages cannot be embraced etc etc.)
Duly noted.

[SurlySeraph]

Sin-Eaters (the humans that Geists are bonded to; it's the only WoD gameline where the name in the title isn't exactly what you play) are probably unlikely to be interested. Everywhere they go they're constantly hassled by ghosts who want help, and they've got enough to worry about with the Underworld without getting another dimension full of inscrutable ancient things mad at them. Plus maintaining the balance of life and death is kinda their thing, and the difficulty of killing True Fey would seem to imply that you're not really supposed to kill them.

On the other hand, Sin-Eaters are highly individualistic and have an entire philosophical group (Bonepickers) based around using their powers to enrich themselves, so you could probably get plenty of them to sign on as mercenaries.

And also on that hand, abducting half the people in Florida isn't exactly good for the balance of life and death. Particularly if I'm right in remembering that the Gentry can kidnap people and keep them around for centuries before they find a way to escape. I can see them getting upset about that.

Also, it sounds to me like Prometheans would be great partners. I'm pretty sure the thorns of the Hedge don't work on them, and if there's anywhere that should be turned into a wasteland it's Arcadia. Just get a bunch of Prommies that are made of iron and let them loose.

[Admiral Squish]

Sin-Eaters (the humans that Geists are bonded to; it's the only WoD gameline where the name in the title isn't exactly what you play) are probably unlikely to be interested. Everywhere they go they're constantly hassled by ghosts who want help, and they've got enough to worry about with the Underworld without getting another dimension full of inscrutable ancient things mad at them. Plus maintaining the balance of life and death is kinda their thing, and the difficulty of killing True Fey would seem to imply that you're not really supposed to kill them.

On the other hand, Sin-Eaters are highly individualistic and have an entire philosophical group (Bonepickers) based around using their powers to enrich themselves, so you could probably get plenty of them to sign on as mercenaries.

And also on that hand, abducting half the people in Florida isn't exactly good for the balance of life and death. Particularly if I'm right in remembering that the Gentry can kidnap people and keep them around for centuries before they find a way to escape. I can see them getting upset about that.

Also, it sounds to me like Prometheans would be great partners. I'm pretty sure the thorns of the Hedge don't work on them, and if there's anywhere that should be turned into a wasteland it's Arcadia. Just get a bunch of Prommies that are made of iron and let them loose.

I apparently need to do more reading on geist, I've never heard pretty much any of that.

But yes, the gentry are well-know for holding people. In the bizzare timescape of Arcadia, a man could be a prisoner for thirty years to return minutes after he left, or spend a week among the court of the fey to return thirty years hence. And only a tiny portion of those taken ever return at all.

Well, promethians would make a great attack force, though I'm not sure the disquiet would affect arcadia in the slightest, what with all the bizzare non-physics. They may simply stop working without the normal laws of reality in place. Besides, attacking Arcadia is generally ill-advised if you don't want to be eaten by people who look like the other mother from Coraline, except these ladies have shark teeth and bloody claws.