Drop outs in PbP games: WHY?

[Katana_Geldar]

Why does it happen? It's infuriating as a DM when I have 8 players and suddenly without any warning whatsoever I have four. Is it too much to ask if people can't play anymore to let the DM know?

And it's not just on this site, I have noticed it on enworld. People just stop posting in a game and hope the DM "gets the message".

I have also notice DMs can stop posting with no warning either. All of the games I have played on this site have ended this way, which is why I fight tooth and nail for the one I run on here.

[SurlySeraph]

Because people just lose track of them, have lost interest in the game's concept over time, feel like it's pointless because things move too slowly, can't think of anything to say or do and are hoping for someone else to post so they can get ideas from that, etc.

[Eldan]

I have no idea, really. I have, so far, only noticed this on this site, but here, to an extent that I wouldn't consider running games here anymore. Before I came here, I used to go to a German site, where the situation was much better (but other factors made me quit). We had year-long games there... though the GM was very strict. Three days no post, you are out. 24 hours to post your combat actions, or you do nothing that turn. And it worked: players stayed active.

One major problem, I think, is combat: it moves very, very slowly in PbP, and that tends to suck all excitement out of it.

[Katana_Geldar]

It does, but once you get around the idea that combat will be longer then it's not too bad. Despite the fact you can spend 12 months plus on Keep on the Shadowfell...

But is too much to ask to drop a PM to the DM saying they can't play? Players who drop out unexpectedly can slow down combat too.

[Defiant]

I know a few years ago, I'd get really busy and either forget or not get to post in a PbP. And when that happened, I had a large wall to climb to convince myself to post. Enough time had passed that it had become socially unacceptable to not have posted for so long - and to post or say anything would make one feel very vulnerable. If you come back, everyone's going to be like "where the hell have you been?" - and no, it's not a logical thing that you can analyze.

It's probably just a facet of psychology or human nature. Call it "out of sight, out of mind". If you get back into it, you have to acknowledge how tardy and bad you have been. Whereas if you just don't post - and don't even post in the forums for months on end - then you don't have to deal with it. And it's not like you're posting other places and not the PbP, you're just completely gone.

Of course, I don't do this nowadays, but I thought this might prove to be a little insight into the psychology of stopping posting in a PbP without warning. Indeed, there's also the large possibility that these people are also jerks, and just don't care.

But I notice this kind of thing in real-life too. It's like I always say:

Better never than late.

If you're late for class, you'll have to get noticed by a lot of your classmates and peers, as well as by your teacher - this will prompt a perception in your head that everyone's thinking "look at that guy that's late" in a bad way. And as such, you want to avoid this experience. Whereas if you never show up, there's not much anyone can say or think - usually you're just forgotten.

It obviously also depends on the teacher and the classroom. My propensity to prefer absence over lateness can be increased by having a strictly-punctual teacher (who points out or is annoyed by latecomers), having a classroom of your peers or people that you want to think well of you (as opposed to random people you don't care about) - even if it's just a few girls you might not want to make unimpressed, and so on...

A person could easily prefer to spend 3 times the amount of time outside of class to catch up with the fact they've missed class, rather than have to deal with the social situation of being late.

[Shademan]

they move so sloooowly. and it is really annoing when everyone but one is logged on

[Ernir]

People are afraid of the confrontation, I assume. Telling someone "dude, I think your game sucks, and I don't want to spend my time on it" (or a more polite paraphrasing thereof) just takes bigger balls than most people have. WAY bigger. Especially when the alternative, just shlinking away, is sooo much easier. There is no accountability, no social fallout, no nothing but at the very most a sad/angry/disappointed/confused mail or two from the GM asking you about why you aren't updating any more, which can be ignored (or even ignored and blocked). People do it because it's easier, and they can.

On the GM's side, games die once the GM realizes that...

• They just committed a significant portion of their free time for the next years to this game.
• The time and effort involved is far more than they originally expected.

And once the GM isn't happy, the GM isn't motivated, and when the GM isn't motivated, the game is doomed.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

For my RPs, the biggest cause of dropouts is real life melodrama. I've got a Scion game that effectively ground to a halt because one of the players got in a car crash, had his hours cut at work, meaning he'd need to work even harder to pay for it, and he's becoming more and more alienated from his pretty conservative family. Add depression to the mix, and the poor guy doesn't have any energy to post. I've put the game on hiatus until his life's not so crappy.

[WrathOfLife]

Why does it happen? It's infuriating as a DM when I have 8 players and suddenly without any warning whatsoever I have four. Is it too much to ask if people can't play anymore to let the DM know?

And it's not just on this site, I have noticed it on enworld. People just stop posting in a game and hope the DM "gets the message".

I have also notice DMs can stop posting with no warning either. All of the games I have played on this site have ended this way, which is why I fight tooth and nail for the one I run on here.

Its lame, but a common problem, an easy fix is to ask for alternative contact details. Steam IDs, MSN, Yahoo messanger. Stuff folks log on to every day, that way you can find out what the problem is real quick.

[Claudius Maximus]

There are legitimate reasons to be unable to post, but even then I expect a dropping-out message unless something really catastrophic has happened.

I have dropped out of a lot of games, but it was always very early and I always posted to inform everyone. Otherwise I have always been the last one standing in failed pbps.

[Katana_Geldar]

None of the four players that dropped out of my game had the simple courtesy of telling me they wouldn't be able to play anymore. It's not that much effort to send a PM, particuarly if I see you posting on here afterwards!

And if a DM is going to call it quits, should not they say something?

[Tengu_temp]

The best way to avoid this: play with people you trust not to pull off something like that, not randoms. Keeping a blacklist of those who dropped out of games without letting anyone know and those who have a tendency to abandon games helps. And yes, leaving a game without even letting the DM know is mighty rude.

[SurlySeraph]

But is too much to ask to drop a PM to the DM saying they can't play? Players who drop out unexpectedly can slow down combat too.

Yeah, but that assumes the person in question is sure they want to leave the game, and if they're in doubt it can feel less awkward to check if it's still moving after they leave.
They should have the courtesy to tell you, but not everyone does. If they don't, don't game with them again.

Even in the best-run and most stable PbP games I've been in, people end up having to leave or going on long breaks. Basically glossing over people going back and forth works well, keeping combat moving instead of holding up at the same round for several days waiting for people to post, and being very willing to gloss stuff over so the game keeps moving quickly works well. A good example is Jade Tarem's For the Spider Queen game; I've seen DMs insist that players go no further than "down the hall" in a single post, but Jade ran things more like "OK, your character has an elite team with him and great rogue-ish skills, so you can sneak through most of this place" or "OK, your character's a social expert with tons of contacts, so you can find someone who sells that without trouble."

It might be worth reading over threads for some of the longer-lived campaigns out there, like The Necromancer's Pact, for ideas.

[Katana_Geldar]

I do have a limit in waiting for people to post, usually a day after the majority of the group and they do nothing for that round.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Why does it happen? It's infuriating as a DM when I have 8 players and suddenly without any warning whatsoever I have four. Is it too much to ask if people can't play anymore to let the DM know?

Well, there's one of your problems right there.

Running a game with 8 players is difficult in RL. Relying on 8 different people, with different schedules, differing mastery of the rules, and differing levels of confidence/comfort/motivation to post with any regularity on a forum with no consequences for not complying is honestly expecting the impossible.

The smaller your player pool, the better, especially in PBP. I'd advise keeping it to four or five.

As an experienced PBP DM, you've got to learn from every missing player, and absorb wisdom from the ashes of every dead game. Lurk on the recruitment boards, read some other games... get a sense for who the good players are, and who the bad players are. There's a tendency to get 'flash in the pan' players who spend a furious amount of time being hyper active in multiple games, and then all at once disappearing. Eventually, you can develop a certain 'player sense' that helps you weed out the flakes.

That said, PBP is pretty much a crap shoot. If you find a good player, take note of them, and once you've got a decent list, perhaps just send PMs and have private recruitment, rather than opening up games to the masses.

[Lord Vampyre]

This has happened in all 3 of the games, I tried playing on these boards and the 1 game I tried to run. In the one I was running it seemed that many of the players had a difficult time deciding on what to do next, and in the end chose to do nothing. They seemed fine when I took a heavy hand in running scenes, but as soon as the decision on what to do next was left to them their interest just seemed to fizzle out.

I am curious as to what makes a successful PbP game continue to run.

[Katana_Geldar]

PbP games need a little bit more "railroading" than real life ones, I don't do outright railroading but when the game stalls after an encounter I may present the players with a few options based on what has happened.

And if you make a big map, they can see these for themselves.

[KillianHawkeye]

You think that's bad? I've had this happen with players in real life. Is it so hard to send an e-mail?

[Tavar]

There are always personal issues as well. I've been dealing with a pretty bad case of social anxiety for awhile now, and that makes it much harder for me to, after an unexpected absence, talk to the DM. Really, there are a lot of OOG, Real Life reasons that someone might drop a game.

[Jjeinn-tae]

I have noticed this happening from both the player and the DM position, though it always seems to be in the early running before anything really happens in my experience, before anything really happens. Maybe the answer is to start a game with "The world is on fire and everyone is dying. FIX IT!" No build up, just dropped right into the action... but then that appeals mainly to the combat players, which really don't work as well in PbP anyways...


Sometimes things come up though, and I'm as guilty as anyone of forgetting to let people know. Despite how easy it is to forget of other obligations you have when you're up to your waist in snow, that doesn't mean you should...

[kyoryu]

I think that a lot of roleplayers are pretty conflict-avoidant. If they're not happy with a game, it's easier to just drop out and go away (since there are rarely any repercussions for this) than to tell the DM why they're unhappy.

Even in cases where they haven't been able to post for legit reasons, the awkwardness of coming back and saying "uh, hi, sorry I haven't been able to post" may be more anxiety than the game is worth to them - it's easier to just go on and pretend they were never a part of it. Again, the lack of real social repercussions probably plays into this as well.

[thorgrim29]

I don't know... All the games I participated in died on me, because the other players or the DM dropped. The one time I tried to run a game, it sort of flopped, I didn't like the party that much (not the players, the party was just odd), and I think I started it a bit slowly, plus I may have scared a few away by having NOT! Manowar play in the tavern.

[Ryuuk]

A good example is Jade Tarem's For the Spider Queen game;

As a drop out from this game it looks like its fitting for me to post.

Well, sometimes you just sort of lose interest. Maybe the character isn't quite as enjoyable as you thought, maybe other things show up IRL. I think I'd gotten to the point where it was actually stressing me out to keep up with everything on the forums instead enjoying it. I originally left that game along with all the other ones I was in at the time and the forum in general. Spending some time unplugged was nice.

That said, Jade handled it very well in the IC. I don't think I answered his PM asking what was up until I finally came back to the forums. Admittedly, I should have at least sent a PM when I left, but I didn't.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I think that a lot of roleplayers are pretty conflict-avoidant.

My, that's a nice way of saying ungracious and/or yellow-bellied.

I don't know a single DM who wouldn't be totally understanding if the player went 'Hey, real life is kicking my butt, I gotta go' and to a lesser extent, 'Not having enough fun with this'.

Pretty much anything is better than disappearing unannounced. I've had some serious crap go on in my life or got bored to death of a game. I've never left a DM hanging.

These guys put hours, if not weeks, of planning into these things, completely free of charge, for your entertainment. It's the least you can do.

I'm currently running a game. This is the sixth incarnation of it and 4th year of attempt. Every one of them folks just... disappeared. These people didn't have an emergency, cuz they tended to still be posting every day elsewhere.
Nor are they dull or badly run. Yet to have a soul complain about it, and those that didn't disappear were disappointed to see it end.

This behavior is not appreciated, and I keep a list of them that I give to DM's I know particularly well as a courtesy warning. Its a way of saying this player may not be dependable, accept at your own risk.

EDit: And yes, I message each one as well. It's those that even ignore the messages that get the red mark.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I have noticed this happening from both the player and the DM position, though it always seems to be in the early running before anything really happens in my experience, before anything really happens. Maybe the answer is to start a game with "The world is on fire and everyone is dying. FIX IT!" No build up, just dropped right into the action... but then that appeals mainly to the combat players, which really don't work as well in PbP anyways...


Sometimes things come up though, and I'm as guilty as anyone of forgetting to let people know. Despite how easy it is to forget of other obligations you have when you're up to your waist in snow, that doesn't mean you should...

In my experience, it's always the first combat encounter where things fall apart, since PbP relies on players being there to make posts, and not everyone is in the same time zone. People then forget it's their turn, and combat grinds to a halt. For the longest time I exclusively played "freeform" games where turn-based combat was avoided for this reason, and while now I'm getting better with actual PbP combat in recent days, I've left a long string of games behind me where it fell apart because combat was a ponderous mess.

[Eurus]

I know a few years ago, I'd get really busy and either forget or not get to post in a PbP. And when that happened, I had a large wall to climb to convince myself to post. Enough time had passed that it had become socially unacceptable to not have posted for so long - and to post or say anything would make one feel very vulnerable. If you come back, everyone's going to be like "where the hell have you been?" - and no, it's not a logical thing that you can analyze.

It's probably just a facet of psychology or human nature. Call it "out of sight, out of mind". If you get back into it, you have to acknowledge how tardy and bad you have been. Whereas if you just don't post - and don't even post in the forums for months on end - then you don't have to deal with it. And it's not like you're posting other places and not the PbP, you're just completely gone.

Of course, I don't do this nowadays, but I thought this might prove to be a little insight into the psychology of stopping posting in a PbP without warning. Indeed, there's also the large possibility that these people are also jerks, and just don't care.

But I notice this kind of thing in real-life too. It's like I always say:

Better never than late.

If you're late for class, you'll have to get noticed by a lot of your classmates and peers, as well as by your teacher - this will prompt a perception in your head that everyone's thinking "look at that guy that's late" in a bad way. And as such, you want to avoid this experience. Whereas if you never show up, there's not much anyone can say or think - usually you're just forgotten.

It obviously also depends on the teacher and the classroom. My propensity to prefer absence over lateness can be increased by having a strictly-punctual teacher (who points out or is annoyed by latecomers), having a classroom of your peers or people that you want to think well of you (as opposed to random people you don't care about) - even if it's just a few girls you might not want to make unimpressed, and so on...

A person could easily prefer to spend 3 times the amount of time outside of class to catch up with the fact they've missed class, rather than have to deal with the social situation of being late.

Oh dear, that hits very close to home for me, both in games and in college.

In my case, drop-outs tend to coincide with periods of depression. And when you're feeling seriously depressed already, the last thing you want to do is remind yourself of (perceived, by yourself or others) failure. What I think happens is:

1: Person joins game, keeps current.
2: Event happens that delays person in keeping up with game temporarily.
3: Person tries to get back into things, but begins falling behind - if the game is a very active one, it might be because they lack the time or energy to keep up with everyone, but if it's a slow game they might unconsciously be pushing it to the bottom of their mental to-do list. Perhaps they were active in many games, and feel like it would be an insult to post in one unless they can get back into all of them.
4: Person does not give warning and drop out of the game, because they enjoy it (or feel obligated to it) and tell themselves "I'll catch up and get back into the game(s), I can still do it."
5: Time has passed, and the person has yet to be able to catch up. People are almost definitely noticing (and possibly resigned to) the absence by this point, and the barriers to returning seem insurmountable. At that point, the person usually feels like it's already over; they've probably been dropped at that point, and there's no point in laboring over an apology that will only serve to call attention to the point.

It's not pretty. One thing that I've found helps is to PM players in whom you see warning signs asking if they're sure that they're able and willing to continue. Once that conversation is opened, the motivations for keeping quiet are much smaller.

[kyoryu]

My, that's a nice way of saying ungracious and/or yellow-bellied.

I don't know a single DM who wouldn't be totally understanding if the player went 'Hey, real life is kicking my butt, I gotta go' and to a lesser extent, 'Not having enough fun with this'.

With people that are conflict avoidant like that, it's not about the likely response of the person that they'd be conflicting with - it's the very thought of conflict itself. Usually these are people that have low self-esteem, tend to be "personality chameleons" and have fear of rejection.

So yes, you're right - any DM would prefer an actual message. But it's not about the DM's preference, or even likely reaction. There's just a fear of disappointing someone, and once that's there, it's easier to just slip into the woodwork.

I don't know if it's a matter of being a "coward," vs. more of a deep-seated psychological issue, closer to a phobia. I do know that I observe it a lot.

And, pretty much Defiant's post.

[Ernir]

I have been thinking for quite some time about why we don't have a guide of sorts to discuss this particular problem. Really, this is the number one problem PbP games have, this should be the number one sticky. =/

*Keeps watching thread, compiling data*

[The Vorpal Tribble]

There's just a fear of disappointing someone, and once that's there, it's easier to just slip into the woodwork.

Except that the act of slipping into the woodwork is guaranteed to disappoint someone, and far more than saying 'I'm leaving'.

I don't know if it's a matter of being a "coward," vs. more of a deep-seated psychological issue, closer to a phobia. I do know that I observe it a lot.

Is there some reason these type of conditions (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it is a legit reason, and not just used as an excuse) seem concentrated within RPG boards? I've wondered that for some time. Over the last 6 years I've been here I've seen probably over a hundred claiming something of that nature.

I try hard not to be cynical, but it just seems too simple and rampant a claim at times not to raise some doubt on my part.

If such is legit however, please, whoever you might be, seek help, and don't apply to games. You know you had this before you came here. Or let the DM know. Heck, if I was told this I'd still let you in, and help you out if I could.

[Katana_Geldar]

I don't know a single DM who wouldn't be totally understanding if the player went 'Hey, real life is kicking my butt, I gotta go' and to a lesser extent, 'Not having enough fun with this'.

Pretty much anything is better than disappearing unannounced. I've had some serious crap go on in my life or got bored to death of a game. I've never left a DM hanging.

These guys put hours, if not weeks, of planning into these things, completely free of charge, for your entertainment. It's the least you can do.

Consider this if you ever think of leaving a DM hanging. That includes in real life.

And in my real life group, this is one thing I am rather strict on. A person who does not show up to a game and doesn't tell me for a session earns my ire, and if it's more than one I let the players think of a suitable and harmless embarrassing thing to happen to their character if they come back. I tell them that I don't care if they text me at 3am the morning before, they need to let me know.