Incarnum + Pact Magic = ?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I’ve been considering making a Binder for an upcoming campaign. I’ve also been paging through Magic of Incarnum. So I’ve got to wondering if there are any Vestiges or feats that might combine the two concepts well.

The campaign is sort of a low-level one shot, so Prestige Classes are out for the character. However, I wouldn’t mind finding learning about them anyway.

[Psyren]

About the best you can say for that combo is that you won't have stat conflicts, since Binders don't really need any. But there doesn't seem to be any overlap at all to me...

[Urpriest]

Hmm...there's no obvious overlap, but...

I could see a binder with 1-2 levels of Totemist or Incarnate being pretty fun, actually. The combination would be very, very versatile, capable of being pretty much whatever you want that day.

[Godskook]

About the best you can say for that combo is that you won't have stat conflicts, since Binders don't really need any. But there doesn't seem to be any overlap at all to me...

Iirc, Binder has a slight charisma dependency for his bluff checks.

[Psyren]

Iirc, Binder has a slight charisma dependency for his bluff checks.

Binders are like Warlocks - Charisma is nice to have, but not needed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I know of no official feat or class that combines pact magic and incarnum, having said that Dragoon Wraith made an excelent theurge class (midnight occultist) that worked beutifully. Sadly I can't link to it as I am posting from a smartphone.

[AnswersQuestion]

The fluff is addictively amazing, but one doesn't really add anything to the other. They work amazingly in gestalt.

[Flickerdart]

You could pick one or both sides up using only feats, so you're not limited to any classes beyond a 1-level dip if you really wanted.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Yeah, I got thinking about Azurin Binder with a choice Incarnum-related Feat or two. If there ever had happened to be a Vestige that interacted with incarnum some way, then that would seal the deal.

[Thurbane]

Binders are like Warlocks - Charisma is nice to have, but not needed.

CHA sets the DC for nearly all of their special ability saves, although it is entirely possible to bind vestiges that don't have abilities that call for a save.

I saw a really nice Binder/Incarnum theurge PtrC over at the old WotC forums once...not sure if it was the same one mentioned above.

Midnight Occultist

[Psyren]

CHA sets the DC for nearly all of their special ability saves, although it is entirely possible to bind vestiges that don't have abilities that call for a save.

I'm aware of all that. I don't see how that invalidates anything I said.

[mootoall]

I'm going to give a +1 to Midnight Occultist. It's really a wonderfully flavorful, and pretty powerful, class. A theurgic class that actually adds something to both!

[Thurbane]

I'm aware of all that. I don't see how that invalidates anything I said.

If you plan on ever using an ability that calls for a save, a decent CHA bonus is fairly important. I get your Warlock analogy. Sure, both can function without CHA (unlike, say, a Sorcerer, who need a minimum CHA score to cast his spells)...I wasn't really trying to invalidate your point, just expand on it.

[Person_Man]

Strong low level multi-class options:

Incarnate:

• Astral Vembraces: DR 2 + (2 * essentia invested)/magic
• Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia) retributive Fire damage
• Mage's Spectacles: 4 + (essentia * 2) bonus to UMD and a few other Skills, high enough to hit the DC 20 to activate wands if you also invest in it cross-class and don't dump Cha.
• Spellward Shirt: 5 + (4 * essentia invested) Spell Resistance. So SR 17 for an Incarnate 3/Anything 3.
• Impulse Boots: Uncanny Dodge and Reflex Save bonus. Evasion when bound to your Feet chakra.
• Silvertongue Mask: 2 + (2 * essentia) bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff.

Totemist:

• Dragon Tail: Tail attack. (Dragon Magic, req dragon blooded).
• Claws of the Wyrm: 2 claws. (Dragon Magic, req dragon blooded).
• Rageclaws: Die Hard, improved by essentia.
• Chaos Roc's Span: 2 wing buffet attacks. (Dragon Mag 350 pg 87)
• Threefold Mask of the Chimera: Cannot be flanked. Bite when bound to Totem.
• Shedu Crown: Immunity to Bull Rush. Telepathy when bound to Crown.
• Sphinx Claws: Pounce with natural weapons when bound to Hands.
• Girillion Arms: 4 claws when bound to Totem.
• Lamia Belt: 2 claws in "lower half" when bound to Totem. I read this as giving you 2 extra claws regardless of what's going on with your hands. So when combined with Girillion Arms (you need the Double Bind feat) you get 6 claws.
• Blink Shirt soulmeld: Dimension Door at will as a standard action. If bound to your Totem, it's only a move action.
• Wormtail Belt: Natural Armor Bonus 2 + essentia.
  

Binder:

• Amon: Darkvision, Fire Breath*, Ram Attack.
• Naberius - Disguise Self, Faster Ability Healing, Naberius’s Skills, Persuasive Words*, Silver Tongue.
• Dahlver-Nar - Mad Soul, Maddening Moan*, Natural Armor, Shield Self.
• Paimon - Dance of Death*, Paimon’s Blade, Paimon’s Dexterity, Paimon’s Skills, Uncanny Dodge, Whirlwind Attack
• Karsus - Heavy Magic, Karsus’s Senses, Karsus’s Touch*, Karsus’s Will

I see a lot of potential synergies there, with the obvious choices being Diplomancy or tanking.

[Zaq]

I have played this exact combination. My favorite character ever was a low-level multiclass Binder/Incarnate (who eventually went Chameleon). You can totally reinvent yourself every day. Aym + Lightning Gauntlets + Soulspark Familiar = Look at me, I'm a wizard! Leraje + Sighting Gloves + Chaotic Incarnum Avatar = I don't know what you're talking about, I'm no wizard, I'm an archer! Savnok + Lifebond Vestments + Lucky Dice = Archer? Huh? I'm a cleric, can't you see my full plate? Here, let me heal and bless you. And so on and so forth. It's amazingly fun, especially with max ranks in Bluff (and Disguise, if you can pull that off) to convince people that no, you really are what you say you are. That was the best character ever. Ended up being MAD as a hatter, but that was due more to poor choices on my part than to any inherent issues.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, I’m not seeing that Incarnum Vestige I was hoping for. Guess I’ll have to homebrew one and see what comes of it.

Thanks for the ideas, guys.

[wizuriel]

I played a incarnate//binder in a gestalt game. The character was a ton of fun, but was kind of a pain to play at higher levels. Without a computer handy its a pain to rewrite out your character sheet each day if you change your character.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I played a incarnate//binder in a gestalt game. The character was a ton of fun, but was kind of a pain to play at higher levels. Without a computer handy its a pain to rewrite out your character sheet each day if you change your character.

Fortunately, the character I currently have in mind is meant for a PbP game. And in real-life games, I have a penchant for easy-to-use cheat sheets.

[kestrel404]

The closest I've seen to this without homebrew is the following build:

Beguiler 1 (Versatile Spellcaster)
Totemist 1
Binder 1 (Improved Binding)
Totemist 2
Incarnate 1
Soulcaster 1-3
Anima Mage 1-7
Soulcaster 4-9

This gives you 9 shaped soulmelds, 12 essentia, 4 bound soulmelds and you can pretty freely mix and match totemist soulmelds with incarnate (though you're limited to a 3/6 split). So aside from the low Essentia total and being able to bind to the heart chakra, this puts you roughly on par with a level 20 totemist for meldshaping abilities, while giving you 16th level Beguiler casting and 8th level binding (2 vestigest up to 5th level!). For this build, don't alternate levels - take Soulcaster up to 3 before 10th level just for the 7 soulmelds and 2 bindings plus binding options, then all 7 levels of anima mage, and finish out with more soulcaster.

The same trick that gets you early 2nd level spells (versatile spellcaster) also gets you 9th level spells, so your spellcasting, while limited, is not much 'behind the curve'. You're only dependent on 2 stats - int for beguiler spells and skills, and Con for soulmelds and HP.

[thorr-kan]

It occurs to me that the Bind Vestige and Shape Soulmeld feats would be great ways to add add'l superpowers to a character in an E6 game.

[Flickerdart]

Yep. Martial Study/Stance is also an immensely popular choice for that reason.

[thorr-kan]

Yep. Martial Study/Stance is also an immensely popular choice for that reason.

Yeah, they would be, especially with the "caster level" not equaling 1, like Bind Vestige does.