Gnomes Vs. Kobolds

[Milo v3]

I want to findout why some people can stand to play as gnomes. So I created this thread to findout why & maybe change the opinnions of some Kobold haters.

Kobolds are seen as underpowered cannonfodder and gnomes are seen as little inventors. This thread is to change the common sterotypes of these to races. Here is a little example of my opinions:

Kobolds
This race is descended from the orginal true dragons. They fastest of the standard small humaniods. They are experts in trapmaking, mining, sorcery, alchemy, training Dire Weasels, & Making armour out of Giant beetles.

Gnomes
This race is basically a bad mix of dwarves, halfings, & weak fey. They invent things that are ten times more complicated then they should be, that then blow up in the face of the inventor. They are jealous little creatures that woreship a god that commited Atrocities killing thousands of innocents.

Yeah so thats my point of view.

[MeeposFire]

Hey gnomes are great for many things like setting off traps, being dinner,...

[FelixG]

I am with you man. Gnomes are annoying as [Exponent Deleted]

Really all they are good for is dinner...Kobolds are much more fun to play as.

One of my few enjoyments of 4E was that Gnomes got the boot to the face to the monster manual.

[crazedloon]

To begin with most people do not play kobolds because they are normally evil. In DnD an alignment is not racial stigmatization or lies about a race it is cold hard fact. So no matter if you read the story of the glittergolds "betrayal" for the gnomes or for the kobolds the race as a whole are evil.

Kobolds
This race is descended from the orginal true dragons. They fastest of the standard small humaniods. They are experts in trapmaking, mining, sorcery, alchemy, training Dire Weasels, & Making armour out of Giant beetles.

-not the fastest (a fast one for sure) but gnomes have whisper gnomes which are just as fast and better at hiding.
-making traps are only useful if your enemy come to you (or a select few very creative uses of some spells) since they tend to be stationary
-mining aint something a PC does and if you want a miner you play a dwarf
-how can they be better at training dire weasels when the gnome can talk to the weasel and ask it to ride it.
-so they can make subpar armor instead of spending the same skill on making useful armor... truelly a gift

-they are better sorcerers but than only if you break kobolds with feats (and fluff wise that is only a select few in an entire populace while the others are just as good if not weaker than other races)

Gnomes
This race is basically a bad mix of dwarves, halfings, & weak fey. They invent things that are ten times more complicated then they should be, that then blow up in the face of the inventor. They are jealous little creatures that woreship a god that commited Atrocities killing thousands of innocents.

Yeah so thats my point of view.

-inventions which blow up are a stigma much like anything you will try to defend on the kobolds and depend on the world (speaking of the standard DnD worlds because custom worlds can not be taken into account)
- again the "atrocities" are only committed if you believe the evil creature version of a story. And again that same god is good aligned which is not an opinion in DnD it is a fact.

if those are the best things you can find for gnomes being bad you have quite the uphill battle

[LordBlades]

IMHO, the only reason gnomes are cool is Shadocraft Mage

[Akal Saris]

I like whisper gnomes because they're like tiny little ninjas that flip out and kill people.

I like standard gnomes because the thought of a squeaky-voiced little dude in a bathrobe summoning demons and entangling you in giant black tentacles appeals to my sense of comedic justice. Ditto for gnome illusionists.

And I like tinker gnomes because I'm a die-hard Dragonlance fan and random explosions are pretty awesome.

[Jjeinn-tae]

I rather like gnomes as they appeal to my enjoyment of Steampunk, and I rather enjoy the incessant practical jokes. I wouldn't be caught within a mile of one though for fear of my life. Eberron Gnomes are also amusing though for being little mobsters (do not mess with The Trust).

I like kobolds as I like reptiles, and I tend to favor the "underdog." My campaign setting features them heavily as the races with the most "power" within society, but that hardly speaks for standard kobolds. There's just something intangible that I enjoy about them. I also would not be caught within a mile of kobolds for fear of my life.

Both kobolds and gnomes have a strange way of making silverware threatening... You touch a kobold's fork and you get twenty knives in your hand from all the traps, you touch a gnome's fork and who knows what would explode in the name of a joke.

[Strife Warzeal]

you touch a gnome's fork and who knows what would explode in the name of a joke.

Somehow he lined your undergarments with small glass tubes of his homemade Alchemical Fire(It burns three times as hot and twice as long!) that are set to break when the fork is touched.

[Gabe the Bard]

I once had a rock gnome who was turned into a kobold after a time-space paradox. Interestingly, he started out as a young gnome, which made him old or venerable as a kobold. Lucky for me he didn't start out as a middle aged gnome!

[Serpentine]

They invent things that are ten times more complicated then they should be, that then blow up in the face of the inventor.

You say that like it's a bad thing

I like gnomes AND kobolds. One of my favourite characters in my game is a long-running gnome illusionist sorcerer/cleric/arcane whatsidoovey.
In my campain world, there are three main groups of gnomes:
- Goblin Isle gnomes are sort of Carribean. They are definitely tinkerers (they're set to invent Warforged sometime in the next few years, and their cities contain huge skyscrapers that go as far underground as they do into the sky), but they are also made up of ever-warring piratical island-nations, and an awful lot of their tinkering goes towards war machines.
- Cliffton gnomes, way inland in the Highland region, are the real stereotypical tinker gnomes. They're mostly colonists from the Goblin Isles seeking a more peaceful existance, and they form a good part of the basis of the magical subculture in the city of Cliffton.
- Mainland gnomes are sort of the equivalent of the (historical, stereotypical) Jews - well-off moneylenders and businessmen, respected and depended on but also subject to mistrust and suspicion. They still have an aptitude for gadgetry, but it's usually reduced to a casual hobby or very strictly utilitarian such as for bank security.

I'm okay with the idea of gnomes being sort of a cross between dwarves and fey. It makes sense to me, and I find them plentily distinct from the other races.

Kobolds haven't really come up much in this world. They're around, there just hasn't been much call for them in-game. We once came across a kobold Ranger taking pot-shots at a city of zombies, and the aforementioned gnome was kidnapped by a tribe of them who were working for a minotaur Barbarian (the kidnapping wasn't at the Morndrax's behest, that was for their own purposes). Oh yeah, there was that cabal of cultists working to resurrect an ancient dracolich... That was kinda snazzy.
I guess kobolds have featured a bit. I like 'em.

[JaronK]

Whispergnomes are awesome. Tiny ninjas! And Kobolds are hilariously fun to play (especially Dragonwrought Kobolds... you run around telling everyone how much better you are than them because you're a dragon and they're not... until you find a giant dragon and just start worshipping him).

JaronK

[Bayar]

To begin with most people do not play kobolds because they are normally evil. In DnD an alignment is not racial stigmatization or lies about a race it is cold hard fact. So no matter if you read the story of the glittergolds "betrayal" for the gnomes or for the kobolds the race as a whole are evil.

Don't forget that good and evil tags are metagame terms usually. In-game, good and evil is just in the eye of the beholder.

-not the fastest (a fast one for sure) but gnomes have whisper gnomes which are just as fast and better at hiding.

Kobolds have Slight build, that gives them the same +8 bonus to hide as whisper gnomes, plus other bonuses due to size when it is advantageous.

- again the "atrocities" are only committed if you believe the evil creature version of a story. And again that same god is good aligned which is not an opinion in DnD it is a fact.

if those are the best things you can find for gnomes being bad you have quite the uphill battle

Well, I read Garl's version of the story, and it seemed like he went Genocidicles just for a laugh. On mortals no less. If that is not an evil act, I don't know what is. Oh, did I mention, he didn't apologise ? Or that no other god apart from Io did anything to fix Garl's mistake ? Would revenge after betrayal condemn a race to an evil tag ?

[Coidzor]

Would revenge after betrayal condemn a race to an evil tag ?

Well, Revenants are still evil, after all. And so is letting oneself actually be consumed by the desire for revenge.

Personally, I prefer kobolds roasted with a pineapple marinade or crispy-fried with 11 secret herbs and spices and served with ranch, honey mustard, and barbecue sauce on the side whereas with gnomes I favor a pudding with a light plum sauce. I know you're only supposed to have elf pudding with plum sauce, but I like the piquant aroma of being an iconoclast. Though if you're entertaining, probably best to break even with a flaming dwarven brandy and bioluminous fungus #12 sauce.

So it basically devolves into the age-old dichotomy between sorcerers and wizards.

[Yora]

I really like gnomes and keep them for my homebrew setting while kicking out halflings.
But I really can't get my mind around why people like gnomes as tinkers. There are two bad things people seem to associate with gnomes, which are tinkering and silliness.
I like them as illusionists, rangers, rogues, and alchemists who are very proffessional about the things they do.

I don't care for kobolds at all. They rarely, if ever, appear in any of my games.

[The Gilded Duke]

Gnomes make some of the best illusionists ever, getting a bonus to save dcs that other wizards just don't have access too, as well as the powerful gnomish illusionist ACF, and access to the Shadowcraft Mage PRC. They also have access to gnome only feats that make their illusions more powerful.

Illusionists are some of the best crowd control wizards.
Wizards are god.

My tenth level gnome Illusionist could use a 0th level spell to tie up 14 10 foot squares of enemies for at least one round.

They are also hardy little bastards, and make surprisingly good barbarians.
Lastly all standard gnomes have the racial spell like ability to destroy evidence (prestidigitation)

[Radar]

I am with you man. Gnomes are annoying as [Exponent Deleted]

Really all they are good for is dinner...Kobolds are much more fun to play as.

One of my few enjoyments of 4E was that Gnomes got the boot to the face to the monster manual.

Well, they are a PC race again.

Seriously: any race is as cool or as lame as we want it to. If someone describes gnomes as suicidal maniacs, they will be such. If someone else pictures kobolds as baby-eating monsters, then it will be true in their game. If yet another person decides to build a powerful empire uniting crazy genious of gnomes with more level-headed kobold engeneers, then it will work just as well.

[DwarfFighter]

From the side: I don't agree with the fascination with kobolds. Sure, they are the "cute" evil guys, but they are still evil and suitable only for being slaughtered in their hundreds and thousands by low-level adventurers.

-DF

[Bayar]

From the side: I don't agree with the fascination with kobolds. Sure, they are the "cute" evil guys, but they are still evil and suitable only for being slaughtered in their hundreds and thousands by low-level adventurers.

-DF

Same can be said about gnomes.

[Coidzor]

Same can be said about gnomes.

Nah, gnomes are easier to domesticate so you can just have 'em in their fields and you can just use commoners, maybe experts if you have to be some kind of fantasy kosher, to slaughter 'em. Kobolds, on the other hand, just like digging too much to stay in a pen for easy gathering of the flock.

[FelixG]

Nah, gnomes are easier to domesticate so you can just have 'em in their fields and you can just use commoners, maybe experts if you have to be some kind of fantasy kosher, to slaughter 'em. Kobolds, on the other hand, just like digging too much to stay in a pen for easy gathering of the flock.

Thats why you keep them in the caves and have them mining! raise critters in the caves to eat, self sustaining work force!

Gnomes...if you keep them on the surface you have to look at them 0.o and just looking at them makes you want to punt them!

[Radar]

Don't forget that good and evil tags are metagame terms usually. In-game, good and evil is just in the eye of the beholder.

Between Detect Evil and Holy Word spells it isn't metagame - it's part of the in-game reality (measurable even). Otherwise you wouldn't have axiomatic or anarchic weapons as well.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Why would you play a Kobold? They have horrible racial traits.

[mootoall]

I'm gonna throw my hat in for the gnomes here, for the sheer badassery that is the Whisper Gnome. I genuinely don't think there's anything more badass than something legitimately bred to sneak around and kill someone with pumped up gnomish quickrazor iajutsu focus. Also, factotums. Gnomes make excellent factotums. Both fluff and crunch-wise.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I take you haven seen *this or this upgrades to Kobolds my good troll, and that is not een touching all the goodies brought by Races of the Dragon

Yes sir, Kobolds are one of my favourite races, why do you ask?

*You need to check the Desert and jungle varieties

[AtlanteanTroll]

I take you haven seen *this or this upgrades to Kobolds my good troll, and that is not een touching all the goodies brought by Races of the Dragon

Yes sir, Kobolds are one of my favourite races, why do you ask?

*You need to check the Desert and jungle varieties

Bah, I hate adding extra varieties. Kobolds are there to populate abandoned mines hunting rats for food, and Gnomes are there to be eccentric nut-jobs who make things go boom.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I suppose I can't make you change your mind, so I will not try it, but I think that is a pretty simplistic view of them (both Kobolds and Gnomes); to each it's own I suppose.

[Coidzor]

Bah, I hate adding extra varieties. Kobolds are there to populate abandoned mines hunting rats for food, and Gnomes are there to be eccentric nut-jobs who make things go boom.

Well, who made the mines? That's who we need to contact. Kobolds. Made the mines.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well, I read Garl's version of the story, and it seemed like he went Genocidicles just for a laugh. On mortals no less. If that is not an evil act, I don't know what is. Oh, did I mention, he didn't apologise ? Or that no other god apart from Io did anything to fix Garl's mistake ? Would revenge after betrayal condemn a race to an evil tag ?

Did you read Garl's side of the story? Only Kurtulmak's tale makes any mention of there being other kobolds being harmed in the collapse.

In one version of the tale Kurtulmak intended to play a great prank. He would invite all other racial deities for a great feast where he would tell them a tale[of how he stole sorcery from Tiamat], at the end he would pull out a ornate stone trigger and bury the assembled deities alive. Garl came upon the cavern and pulled out the stone burying the kobold god in his own trap.
The kobolds claim out of jealousy while the Gnomes say just to see if it actually work or that the key stone resembled his holy symbol.

Another version of the tale has Garl collapsing the cave while Kurtulmak was hosting Asemodeus. The archdevil was not pleased. In either version the only one harmed was Kurtulmak.

Kurtulmak's version of the tale doesn't hold water, it doesn't match alignments for any of the deities involved[except Io]. And it makes him out as this absolute perfect genius. The only part that makes any sense is that he'd pick personal power over restoring the lives of all those who were lost.

[Bayar]

Here's a tough exercise: Switch good and evil alligments and tags from everything in D&D. Would that make Garl's story false or no longer make sense ?

[Gamerlord]

Let me see.

KOBOLDS:
Crazy awesome little sorcerer dudes who worship dragons.

GNOMES:
Short annoying people who wander around being useless, and dying.