the swift daring ambushing outlaw

[SylvanPrincess]

this may have been done before, but here it is for your perusal.

wanted to combine 3 classes and 2 of the class level stacking feats from CS, and CA. daring outlaw, and swift ambusher.

prereqs: grace +1, sneak attack 2d6
daring outlaw lets you combine your rogue and swashbuckler levels for the purpose of determining your ref save bonus from grace, your dodge bonus (swash), and your sneak attack damage progression.

prereqs: skirmish 1d6/1 AC, sneak attack 1d6
swift ambusher lets you combine your rogue and scout levels for the purpose of determining your damage and ac bonus from skirmish, as well as qualifying for ambush feats (adds your sneak attack die and your skirmish die to determine this)

the build i suggest is rogue 14/swashbuckler 3/scout 3
combined class levels are rogue 14, swashbuckler 17, scout 17

therefore (pretty sure i did this correctly)...

(from combing the 2 feats)
-sneak attack: 9d6 (as level 17 rogue)
-skirmish: 5d6/4 AC (as level 17 scout)
-dodge bonus: +3 (as a level 17 swashbuckler)
-grace: +2 (as a level 17 swashbuckler)

(the rest)
-BAB: 15
-saves: +9/+15/+6 (with grace +2, battle fortitude +1)
-skills: 8 + int mod for 17 levels, 4 + int mod for 3
-Int to damage (swash)
-2 rogue special abilities (not bad, could be feats used to take ambush feats)
-evasion
-uncanny dodge (full)
-trap sense +4
-weapon finesse
-trapfinding
-fast movement +10ft
-trackless step
-battle fortitude +1 (fort save and initiative)

only problem i see is that you qualify for daring outlaw at level 6, and them swift ambusher at level 9. might seem a bit too high to get them, but daring outlaw at level 6 gives you 3d6 sneak, and scout at level 7 puts it up to 4d6 (i know you cant always do both, but...)...4d6 at level 7 is the same as rogue 20, and at level 9 its 5d6, level 10 its 6d6, level 12 its 9d6, level 14 its 10d6 (when a rogue20 would get 10d6 at level 19). this build gets 14d6 at level 20. that is, if all my math is correct....

[Master_Rahl22]

This looks pretty nifty, although I'd really like to see that extra BAB to get the fourth iterative in there. Rogue 14 doesn't get you anything besides progressing your feats. What about replacing 2 levels of Rogue with Swashbuckler? You keep the same Sneak Attack, lose some Skirmish and a Rogue ability, but gain +16 BAB. Also, you definitely need to make sure you have some way to pounce/gain free movement if this is a melee build so you can full attack with Skirmish. Person_Man has a great guide to free movement and pounce

[Telonius]

Yeah, pounce is the one thing missing. Otherwise, you basically have something like (one of) the Monk's problem of abilities synergizing badly. Yes, you can get one hit at 14d6. But is that better than TWF'ing twice for 9d6 each time? When your BAB is low, and your strength is poor, and you have bonus damage, your best bet is to drown your enemies in a flood of attacks, not just rely on one big hit. (That's for uberchargers, not rogue-ish guys).

[Curmudgeon]

the build i suggest is rogue 14/swashbuckler 3/scout 3
combined class levels are rogue 19, swashbuckler 19, scout 16

therefore (pretty sure i did this correctly)...

(from combing the 2 feats)
-sneak attack: 9d6 (as level 16 rogue)
-skirmish: 5d6/4 AC (as level 16 scout)
-dodge bonus: +3 (as a level 16 swashbuckler)
-grace: +2 (as a level 16 swashbuckler)

Your arithmetic is off there. 14+3 = 17. You need level 17 (14 Rogue + 3 Swashbuckler + Daring Outlaw) to get the 9d6 sneak attack; level 16 is only 8d6. Ditto level 17 to get skirmish 5d6. Similarly, 14+3+3 = 20.

You don't get "combined class levels" generally, though. You'll miss out on all the class features not mentioned in the multiclassing feats. Those include

• 2 Rogue special abilities
• BAB (so you won't get a 4th iterative attack)
• Scout class features: bonus feats, flawless stride, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, blindsense, Battle Fortitude improvements
• Swashbuckler class features: Improved Flanking, Lucky

You will/can make up for a bunch of missed class abilities from your Rogue levels. Rogue evasion covers the Scout ability. Rogue Skill Mastery is better than the limited Swashbuckler Acrobatic Skill Mastery. Rogue Crippling Strike is also better than Swashbuckler Weakening Critical because sneak attacks are easier to manage than critical hits. Rogues can get Slippery Mind, too (though other special abilities are better choices).

Rogue 14 is normally considered a "dead" level; it only gives +1 BAB and +1 Reflex. You're getting it to add to both your Scout and Swashbuckler multiclassing features. However, while you get something useful for 14+3 = 17 Scout (a bump in skirmish), you don't get any Grace or Dodge bonus benefits at 14+3=17 Swashbuckler ─ just sneak attack improvement. So switching to Rogue 13/Scout 4/Swashbuckler 3 would yield most of the same multiclassing benefits and the same saving throws; you would be down -1 BAB and -1d6 sneak attack but get a Scout bonus feat instead. You can get sneak attack boosters like a Rogue's Vest, and the Craven feat is going to provide a constant sneak attack bonus.

Overall, I like the idea of maximizing class synergy. You'll be pretty feat-starved here, though, so I'd try very hard to to compensate:

• Be human.
• Take 2 flaws.
• Acquire magic items granting feats.
• Consider the above shift to Rogue 13/Scout 4 to get a bonus feat.

[SylvanPrincess]

Your arithmetic is off there. 14+3 = 17. You need level 17 (14 Rogue + 3 Swashbuckler + Daring Outlaw) to get the 9d6 sneak attack; level 16 is only 8d6. Ditto level 17 to get skirmish 5d6. Similarly, 14+3+3 = 20.

You don't get "combined class levels" generally, though. You'll miss out on all the class features not mentioned in the multiclassing feats. Those include

• 2 Rogue special abilities
• BAB (so you won't get a 4th iterative attack)
• Scout class features: bonus feats, flawless stride, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, blindsense, Battle Fortitude improvements
• Swashbuckler class features: Improved Flanking, Lucky

You will/can make up for a bunch of missed class abilities from your Rogue levels. Rogue evasion covers the Scout ability. Rogue Skill Mastery is better than the limited Swashbuckler Acrobatic Skill Mastery. Rogue Crippling Strike is also better than Swashbuckler Weakening Critical because sneak attacks are easier to manage than critical hits. Rogues can get Slippery Mind, too (though other special abilities are better choices).

Rogue 14 is normally considered a "dead" level; it only gives +1 BAB and +1 Reflex. You're getting it to add to both your Scout and Swashbuckler multiclassing features. However, while you get something useful for 14+3 = 17 Scout (a bump in skirmish), you don't get any Grace or Dodge bonus benefits at 14+3=17 Swashbuckler ─ just sneak attack improvement. So switching to Rogue 13/Scout 4/Swashbuckler 3 would yield most of the same multiclassing benefits and the same saving throws; you would be down -1 BAB and -1d6 sneak attack but get a Scout bonus feat instead. You can get sneak attack boosters like a Rogue's Vest, and the Craven feat is going to provide a constant sneak attack bonus.

Overall, I like the idea of maximizing class synergy. You'll be pretty feat-starved here, though, so I'd try very hard to to compensate:

• Be human.
• Take 2 flaws.
• Acquire magic items granting feats.
• Consider the above shift to Rogue 13/Scout 4 to get a bonus feat.

thanks for taking the time to crunch numbers with me :) i think what you suggested about 1 more level of scout is a good point. it is a little feat starved, but you could always (if you HAD to) take a feat instead of a rogue special ability. also, we dont play with flaws, sorry

the other concept im thinking about is combing ascetic mage with master spellthief. ascetic mage lets you sack spells to gain the spells level on hit and damage for 1 round. you also use your cha bonus to ac instead of wis.

master spellthief combines your levels in spellthief with your arcane caster to determine the level of spells that can be stolen, and your total caster level. it also give you armored caster: light. i know that isnt as synergistic with cha ac bonus, but something would be worked out.

the thought is, steal a spell, then sack it for damage. there has to be some way to abuse this. thoughts?

[Curmudgeon]

but you could always (if you HAD to) take a feat instead of a rogue special ability.

No, no, no, never, no, please!

Rogue special abilities are the big payoff for sticking through the first 10 levels of the class, while spellcasters are getting their consistent boosts (more and better spells) with every level.

Skill Mastery lets you always "take 10" on your mastered skills. (Important optimization note: Your INT modifier is checked just once when you master these skills. You're free to get Fox's Cunning cast on you, or borrow a Headband of Intellect +6, before you select these skills. This should net you 7-9 mastered skills.) This is a guarantee that you'll never have to worry about rolling values in the 1-9 range for these skills, ever again. For skills with known fixed DCs for success (like Tumble, Sleight of Hand, Diplomacy, Open Lock, Disable Device, and Search) this is equivalent to gaining 9 more ranks in each mastered skill: 63-81 extra ranks. That's huge! Follow up with the Savvy Rogue feat and you can "take 12" instead.

Crippling Strike lets you deal 2 points of STR damage with every sneak attack. Follow up with the Savvy Rogue feat and you can deal this ability damage to sneak-immune enemies, like oozes and swarms.

For a Rogue with decent reach, Opportunist lets you make an AoO against an enemy hit by any of your allies, once per round. Follow up with the Savvy Rogue feat and you can make AoOs against as many enemies as Combat Reflexes allows.

[true_shinken]

master spellthief combines your levels in spellthief with your arcane caster to determine the level of spells that can be stolen, and your total caster level. it also give you armored caster: light. i know that isnt as synergistic with cha ac bonus, but something would be worked out.

the thought is, steal a spell, then sack it for damage. there has to be some way to abuse this. thoughts?

Works better as Spellthief/Swordsage, I believe. But for sacrificing spells for more damage, I'd use a Spellthief gish build + Arcane Strike.

[MeeposFire]

You could use the tumble rules in Oriental Adventures to get a 10 foot step. This will allow you to use skirmish on full attacks. There is also a stance that does the same thing but it will be hard to qualify for it.

[Popertop]

there are a few boots that give you non-provoking movement as a swift action somewhere...
Also the chronocharms are pretty good, they are only 1/day for each of them, but theres five and most of them are pretty good for rogues. One of them lets you move half your movement as a swift action, and since you get fast movement from scout that's a swift action skirmish enabler right there.
I just can't remember which of the boots gives something like that...
The only pair I can remember are quicksilver boots, which give you half your movement, swift, 5/day, but it provokes AoO. :/


obligatory class rant
rant/
I always thought the rogue class could use more special abilities. Like, you start getting them at level 8 instead of 10, that way you get 5, and 20th level isn't dead. Also rogue should get imprv evasion for free. Monk gets it like wth. Feels like there's something else missing from the class too... /rant

[SylvanPrincess]

there are a few boots that give you non-provoking movement as a swift action somewhere...
Also the chronocharms are pretty good, they are only 1/day for each of them, but theres five and most of them are pretty good for rogues. One of them lets you move half your movement as a swift action, and since you get fast movement from scout that's a swift action skirmish enabler right there.
I just can't remember which of the boots gives something like that...
The only pair I can remember are quicksilver boots, which give you half your movement, swift, 5/day, but it provokes AoO. :/


obligatory class rant
rant/
I always thought the rogue class could use more special abilities. Like, you start getting them at level 8 instead of 10, that way you get 5, and 20th level isn't dead. Also rogue should get imprv evasion for free. Monk gets it like wth. Feels like there's something else missing from the class too... /rant

nice rant lol, i agree

here is another feat id like to play with, swift avenger. maybe an variant druid, or druid sublevels like the halfling druid. idk

[SylvanPrincess]

heres another fun one, with one redundancy that i can see. is a little MAD too now that i look again.

swash 3/ninja 8/sneak attack fighter 9.

18 bab
4d6 sudden strike, 5d6 sneak attack.
INT to damage
ac bonus like ninja
grace +2, dodge +2
fun ninja tricks like invisibilty, great leap, and speed climb.
ki dodge is fun too

do all this with a ninja-to, actually a pretty tight ninja build, if you have good numbers.

can you power attack a sneak attack?

[true_shinken]

can you power attack a sneak attack?

Yes, you can. You know what's funny? The creator of the Martial Stalker feat actually said his intent was that the feat would give you Fighter bonus feats as you progress in Ninja. Just think about this for a while.

[MeeposFire]

You can power sneak attack. Unless you are using light weapons (or at least you get no benefit).

[SylvanPrincess]

Yes, you can. You know what's funny? The creator of the Martial Stalker feat actually said his intent was that the feat would give you Fighter bonus feats as you progress in Ninja. Just think about this for a while.

i dont understand, it clearly says something different :( i know my dm probably wont do for intent changes, unless they are officially listed somewhere

i looked thru here too, and couldnt find anthing. be cool though. still, the sneak attack fighter is good here, no?

[SylvanPrincess]

referring to the OP, would 10 levels of ninja spy ruin this build? it does advance sneak attack, but not as fast, and you would lose some combined rogue/scout levels dropping skirmish to 2d6/2ac. your sneak would drop to 4d6, but would then go up to 7d6 so there would be a combined 9d6 damage, not nearly as good as 14d6, but you would get all the abilities the ninja spy has to offer, including slow fall +20, leap of the clouds, acrobatics +20, hide in plain sight, thousand faces, water walk, slippery mind and abundant step. to name most of them, but not all.

in fact, might it just be better to drop scout all together (for this variant) and go swashbuckler 4/ rogue 6/ninja spy 10? then it would be a solid 8d6 sneak attack (not amazing anymore, but not too shabby) with int to damage. would only get grace +1, dodge +2, but added to the ninja spy frame seems pretty decent. oh also, all these monk type abilities the ninja spy receives can be used in light armor.