PEACH: "Round up" feats for fractional BAB and Saves

[Stegyre]

tl;dr: in E6, using fractional BAB and saves, I'm contemplating adding two new feats -- "round up BAB" and "round up saves" -- which do just what you might expect. PEACH: too good or comparable with other good-but-not-to-die-for feats?

Long version

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I'm contemplating some E6 houserules and am definitely committed to fractional BAB and saves. See UA at 73 (not sure why that info isn't in the SRD, but I suspect experienced players are readily familiar with it).

I've thought of adding two new feats, which for discussion purposes, we can call "round up BAB" and "round up saves." They would do just like the name says on the label: whenever a character with "round up BAB" has a fractional BAB score, it always rounds up instead of down.

I want to know whether playgrounders feel these feats would be "too good" or "good." I really don't care if people consider them "poor," as "poor" feats (imo) do not lead to any balance issues: players just don't take them.

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These are my subjective criteria for the three categories, with examples:

A feat is "too good" when everyone should take it, and you would be foolish not to, assuming that it applied to the character's situation (for example, full BAB classes would never take "round up BAB," because it would never benefit them).

Example: DMM(Persist) -- sure, you don't have to have it; only clerics can use it; and you can have very good cleric builds without DMM, but it's hard to argue against the conclusions that DMM (Persist) is a high-powered feat, and there are very few builds capable of using it (i.e., cleric) that cannot be improved by using it.

A feat is "good" when it's worth taking, depending upon the character's build. Some characters will take it; some won't.

"Poor" feats probably don't need much description. These are the feats that good players will avoid as the waste of a feat. Most of the skill feats fall into this category, or feats that really seem made for NPCs, like Ballista Proficiency.

Thus, a character with 3/4 BAB progression:
{table]Class Level|Fractional BAB|Normal|With Feat
1|3/4|0|1
2|1 1/2|1|2
3|2 1/4|2|3
4|3|3|3
5|3 3/4|3|4
6|4 1/2|4|5[/table]
(With multi-classing and mixing full, 3/4, and half BAB classes, multiple variations are possible, but I think you get the idea.)

Saves would work similarly:
{table]Class Level|Frac. good|Normal|With Feat|Frac. bad|Normal|With Feat
1|2 1/2|2|3|1/3|0|1
2|3|3|3|2/3|0|1
3|3 1/2|3|4|1|1|1
4|4|4|4|1 1/3|1|2
5|4 1/2|4|5|1 2/3|1|2
6|5|5|5|2|2|2[/table]
(Note: wrt Saves, I only allow the +2 bonus once in each good save category, so a Fighter 1 / Cleric 1, would have a Fort. save of 3 (2 1/2 + 1/2), not 4 or 5.)

Analysis:
I feel fairly comfortable with "round up BAB." This feat will never give a character more than a +1 to hit (akin to Weapon Finesse, but usable with any weapon). It may help the partial BAB classes qualify for feats or PrCs more readily, but again, no one would be able to do so any faster than a full BAB class can, and generally this is a minor benefit. Finally, characters that do not dip too heavily into the low-BAB classes may make use of this feat to achieve that magical +6 BAB at level 6 and have an iterative attack. That's better than Weapon Focus, and any character with a fractional BAB over 5 should definitely take this feat, but I don't feel that it's overpoweringly good. Playgrounders?

As for "round up saves," at its best, this feat grants three +1s -- one to each save category. In the long run, I expect that most characters that take it would end up with only two +1s, while the third save would be a whole number. That makes this feat comparable to, or slightly better than, the save feats (Great Fortitude, et al). Those are generally regarded as low-powered feats, although I think their value in an E6 campaign is somewhat higher. Again, this strikes me as a feat that would be useful without being "too good." Your opinions?

[gkathellar]

I'm thinking both of these are kind of terrible, actually. Round up BAB is Weapon Focus, except it's slightly easier to get your one iterative attack. Round up Saves is at best as good Great Fort/Lightning Ref/Iron Will - those save boosters nobody takes.

[Barbarian MD]

I'd suggest making it a single feat.

[Zeta Kai]

I'd suggest making it a single feat.

Seconded.x

[Havvy]

I would never take these feats while I could take feats that can increase my attack roll by +1 or my saves by +2. Or something of equal strength (like the ability to not fall prone by making a DC 20 balance check). Turning minor variant rules into feats is a good way to make trap options or balance-changing options. Either use the variant rules or don't.

[GnomeWorks]

Isn't there a variant rule, either in the DMG or UA, that does basically this, without bothering with feats?

[Stegyre]

Isn't there a variant rule, either in the DMG or UA, that does basically this, without bothering with feats?

Not to my knowledge. If someone has a cite for such, I'd like to see it.

I'd suggest making it a single feat.

Mm, a significant percentage of posters like this idea. You don't think that would be "too good"? As I say, imo, "round up BAB" is notably better than Weapon Focus (admittedly, a bit of a trap feat), and "round up saves" is comparable to the save feats. Keep in mind that, in E6, the save feats are actually quite worthwhile: when your maximum base save is only +5, an additional +2 is a significant raise.

(Note: I also plan to use 3d6 in place of d20, and each +1 mod is worth approximately twice as much as it is on a d20.)

I appreciate these comments.

[Barbarian MD]

I'm of the school of thought that feats should be worth something. You should get something worthwhile out of an investment that get such a limited number of. +1 to attack? Not worth it. +1 to saves? Not worth it. A feat that allows you to do constrict damage while grappling? Sure. A feat that lets you destroy undead on turn attempts instead of merely turning them? Absolutely. But +1 to ANYTHING? Not in my opinion.

I'm aware of how E6 works, but I've never played it, so I can't say for certainty, but +1 to attacks/+1 saves isn't overpowered in my opinion. Particularly since you can make the argument that it's not +1 to attacks and all saves, but rather +1 to those that you qualify for, and not even +1 at that, but + some fraction less than 1.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm of the school of thought that feats should be worth something. You should get something worthwhile out of an investment that get such a limited number of. +1 to attack? Not worth it. +1 to saves? Not worth it. A feat that allows you to do constrict damage while grappling? Sure. A feat that lets you destroy undead on turn attempts instead of merely turning them? Absolutely. But +1 to ANYTHING? Not in my opinion.

Agreed. Especially in E6 and similar variants, where your options are more limited, and thus each feat is worth more.

[Jota]

Not to my knowledge. If someone has a cite for such, I'd like to see it.

Or the whole thing can be found here, if you care to peruse. Why the fractional saves haven't been copied into SRD databases (either d20SRD or any one of the numerous wikis that host it) is beyond me, though that it's a sidebar may have something to do with it.

[Stegyre]

@Jota: that's the passage from UA for fractional BAB and saves, which is the variant I'm using, yes. (I even cite to that page in the OP spoiler.) However, I understood GnomeWorks to be referring to an additional variant that provided for rounding up, when using fractional BABs and saves. I haven't yet seen that (and the UA sidebar makes quite clear that fractions are rounded down).

@all: you're swaying me more and more to making this a single feat that rounds up both BAB and saves. I appreciate your comments.

[Eloel]

Agreed. Especially in E6 and similar variants, where your options are more limited, and thus each feat is worth more.

That works other way around. In E6, you get more feats, a lot more feats, than you normally do.

[Gorgondantess]

Actually, in E6, this feat is quite good for one thing. See, the only way to get a BAB of +6 is to take a full BAB class for all 6 of your levels- this lets you get a BAB of +6 while taking stuff like rogue. And BAB +6 is good because you're suddenly attacking twice as much on a full attack.
This would also be really good in gish builds, for qualifying for PrCs. Is it a feat that raises your power a lot? No. But would I take it? Hell yes. Qualifying for Abjurant Champion 1 level earlier is always worth it.

[Temotei]

That works other way around. In E6, you get more feats, a lot more feats, than you normally do.

Options are still more limited, though, as you'll only be gaining feats instead of class features and feats.