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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    The Crimson Fang style is brutally efficient, honest, and ugly. Originating in bloody arena combat and honed on the battlefield, the crimson fang is considered a counterpart to Tiger Claw, and it works well both with and against it’s techniques. The Crimson Fang techniques are based on extremely close combat, grapples and locks. The skilled practitioner can literally tear his foes apart in a gory spectacle unmatched by all but the most brutal of monsters.

    The discipline’s teachings are strongly focused on the external aspects of a warrior, but that doesn’t mean the mind is ignored. Many students come to learn crimson fang techniques expecting a purely physical training, hoping to learn how to perform the feats of strength they have seen. But they are also taught what most martial adepts view as an immoral and overly violent philosophy, where the results are the only thing that matter. However, those who take the study of the philosophy often realize a truth that most practitioners are too afraid to admit. If you kill your enemy with a dagger or with magic or with your bare hands, the result is the same. A warrior makes himself into a weapon because something needs to die.

    Crimson Fang warriors believe in strong bodies and strong spirits. A crimson fang warrior is not a raging berserker or a holier-than-though paladin. Crimson fang practitioners are direct, unsubtle, and often a bit abrasive. They train their bodies to perfection to make themselves into the ultimate weapon, and they hone their spirits to diamond hardness. They can be good or evil, but they are above all practical. Their art is neither beautiful nor pleasant, but it gets the job done.

    Crimson fang practitioners are strong and often large. Their bodies are trained for strength and efficiency, rather than speed or grace. The crimson fang discipline favors unarmed strikes, claw attacks, bite attacks, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, and katars, forsaking weapons that would distance them from their opponent any more than necessary. They favor the intimidate skill, which is almost second nature when the crimson fang warrior’s techniques involve tearing foes limb from limb.


    NOTE: Crimson Fang introduces several new concepts:

    The first new maneuver type is the finisher. A finisher is a strike that requires a specific situation for it to be used. For example, a finisher could require the user and the target to be grappling, or it could require the target to be prone. If the conditions are not met, the finisher cannot be used.

    The second new maneuver type is the Extended Strike. These strikes are initiated like any other strike, but last for more than one round. After initiating the maneuver, these techniques often require full-round actions to maintain. The user can maintain the maneuver as long as they maintain the prerequisites for its use, or until the user decides to take any other action that is longer than a swift action. For example, An extended strike could require the user and target to be grappling. The user may use the extended strike any number of times after first initiating it, as long as they maintain their hold on the opponent and don’t use any actions longer than swift.

    The final new maneuver type is the dual-type maneuver. These maneuvers are usually stances that give a unique counter or boost. However, they often require the stance end immediately after activating the granted maneuver, requiring another swift action to re-enter the stance later.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Rending Stance (Stance/Boost): While grappling, you deal extra damage and can deal slashing or piercing as you please.

    Serpent's Coils (Counter): You may make a grapple check against an opponent that just missed you.

    Constrictor Stance (Stance): You gain a bonus to AC and if an opponent misses you, you may expend it as an immediate action to initiate the Serpent’s Coils maneuver.

    Third Fist Strike (Strike): You headbutt your opponent violently, dealing extra damage and dazing him, possibly even stunning.

    Hurl the Broken (Strike): You toss your broken and defeated opponent away, dealing extra damage if he impacts an enemy. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Limb-Snapping Flex (Strike): You attempt to break your enemy's arm, dealing extra damage and taking said appendage out of commission until proper treatment has been applied.

    Burst the Binding Chains (Strike/Counter): You may as a strike or counter attempt to free yourself from a grapple, dealing damage to the grappler. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Vortex Grip (Strike): You may attempt to reverse the superiority in a grapple.

    Crushing Grasp (Extended Strike): You grab your enemy and constrict him with great force, dealing extra damage as long as you maintain it. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Devastating Grasp (Extended Strike): You grab your enemy and constrict him, turning his bones to dust and insides to mush dealing extra damage. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Titan's Hammer (Strike): You toss yourself and your opponent high into the air and come back crashing down, your enemy's head acting as a cushion to your own fall, dealing extra damage. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Disarming Grapple (Strike): You swiftly disarm your opponent while grappling him. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Iron Bough (Strike): You charge your opponent and deal extra damage and grapple him to the ground.

    Siege Grip (Extended Strike): You rend away at your enemy's armor and protective gear, leaving him vulnerable to other abilities. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Iron Claw Lock (Stance): Your holds and grapples become nigh impossible to escape and automatically pin your enemies.

    Suffocating Hold (Strike): You strangle your opponent with your bare hands, dealing extra damage and knocking him out. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Back-Breaking Twist (Strike): You use improved leverage, raw strength and trained technique to snap your enemy's spin like a twig before crushing his neck, paralyzing and possibly killing him. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Face to the Ground (Extended Strike): You smash your enemy's head to the ground with enough force to make a small crater, dealing extra damage. Hit once per round, plus an extra for every ten Initiator levels. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Twin Serpent Stance (Stance): You only need one hand to grapple an opponent, therefore able to grapple two simultaneously or rolling twice against one opponent. Strikes, if using both hands, benefit from strength twice and may use Power Attack feat as if the hands were of large size.

    Dragon's Claw (Boost): If an attack succeeds, initiated a free grapple attempt.

    Joint-Snapping Blow (Strike): Strike the enemy and dislocate an arm or leg, dealing extra damage and giving a penalty to said limb's use.

    Ground Pound (Boost): If you manage to trip an opponent, make a free grapple attempt at +x bonus to all rolls and you immediately pin the target. Also works if the target has already been tripped.

    Deep Blow (Strike): Strike your enemy in the kidneys, leaving him wheezing and panting, causing sickness and dazing for two rounds and stunning for one.

    Iron Shackle (Extended Strike): You immobilize your foe as long as you can maintain the grapple and deal minor damage each round. Extra damage if followed by a Finisher, Clinch or Joint maneuver. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Intruding Step (Stance/Counter): If an opponent charges or moves adjacent to you to attack, you may move into their area without drawin Attacks of Opportunity for purposes of a grapple check. If an opponent attempts to leave your threat range, you may make a free grapple check at a penalty.

    Mighty Drop (Strike): You raise your enemy above your head and behind you before falling back with all your weight and strength directed to his spine, dealing extra damage. Requires you and the target to be grappling.

    Giant’s Clutch (Stance): You grapple as though you were one size category larger

    Titan‘s Clutch (Stance): You grapple as though you were two size categories larger.

    Earthen Embrace (Strike): You trip an opponent, hurling them to the ground and dealing damage.

    Boulder Drop (Strike): You fall onto your opponent, dealing heavy damage. Requires the target to be prone.
    Last edited by Admiral Squish; 2010-12-17 at 08:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    (Reserved for Maneuver Descriptions)
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    This discipline has been mostly constructed by Soulblazer87, based off my idea. We've been tossing it back and forth here, but I figure it was time to put some new eyes on it and put some new minds to work.

    Right now, I need help nailing these ideas down to specific power levels. Maybe some new close-combat moves. I've been looking at a lot of Human Weapon episodes and moves on youtube to check out real-world martial arts for ideas.

    Anyway, you guys can post now.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    I definitely like the idea of a grappling discipline. The new maneuver concepts sound good, but I see no reason to introduce the "Finisher" tag when it's easy to misinterpret, you can just specify in the maneuver the conditions necessary to initiate it, and you apply it to hardly any of these maneuvers even though most of them require the initiator to be grappling.

    How would you work out Constrictor Stance so that taking it doesn't make taking Serpent's Coils redundant? It'd have to give pretty significant advantages for a first-level stance to make the choice between keeping its advantages and getting to use a maneuver for free not obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    I definitely like the idea of a grappling discipline. The new maneuver concepts sound good, but I see no reason to introduce the "Finisher" tag when it's easy to misinterpret, you can just specify in the maneuver the conditions necessary to initiate it, and you apply it to hardly any of these maneuvers even though most of them require the initiator to be grappling.

    How would you work out Constrictor Stance so that taking it doesn't make taking Serpent's Coils redundant? It'd have to give pretty significant advantages for a first-level stance to make the choice between keeping its advantages and getting to use a maneuver for free not obvious.
    So do I, which is why I came up with the idea for a grappler discipline. I might just scrap the finisher tag, though. Now that you point it out, I can see the problems with it.

    As for constrictor stance, it could be a significantly higher-level stance than the maneuver. You would probably get the maneuver, then eventually trade it once you got the stance.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Good then, I was assuming the maneuvers were in intended level order. I'm looking forward to seeing how you develop this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    Good then, I was assuming the maneuvers were in intended level order. I'm looking forward to seeing how you develop this.
    Oooh, No way in hell. The only order here is the order they popped into my head. Or, soulblazer's head, really.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes too.

    Also, I'm open to suggestions. Does anyone have any grapple-related maneuvers to suggest that we add to the list?
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Yes, well, I got too sidetracked due to Dynasty Warriors Online (it's damn addictive), so I need some time to get back to this. Though, some new eyes will help a lot. Fresh blood and all that.

    By the way, Finishers have the unfortunate side-effect of ending the prerequisites that caused them (often though incurring other side-effects like tossing the enemy away). For example, the Titan's Hammer is a Finisher that, upon completion ends the grapple.

    Obviously, many here can see the synergy between Crimson Fang and Tiger Claw; Tiger claw for charging and pouncing, while having Crimson Fang for grappling and tossing the enemy around.

    Only problems I have right now is getting some more inspiration for these moves and getting their levels and damage right. I don't want to overpower this one, more like keep it in line of the other LoB disciplines, since they are much better than the original nine.

    EDIT: Constrictor Stance is a dual type maneuvre; a stance that actually grants you the Serpent's Coil counter if you expend it. But, it is a Stance which you may want to save for another discipline or change later on, so the maneuvre itself is also in separately. Which would also allow you to counter grapple twice before needing to recover them. Nasty huh?

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    Twin Serpent Stance (Stance): You only need one hand to grapple an opponent, therefore able to grapple two simultaneously or rolling twice against one opponent. Strikes, if using both hands, benefit from strength twice and may use Power Attack feat as if the hands were of large size.
    Undertaker "Double Choke Slam" ? ;-)

    using some moves of the WWE superstars would be adequate, Randy Orton RKO, Edge's Spear , etc... ^^
    Last edited by umbrapolaris; 2010-12-18 at 07:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Unfortunately, when I was writing the maneuvre list, I had no knowledge of WWE. Nor of God of War. Nor of Pankration or other wrestling-based martial arts. It's the same now. Only thing I had to go for was my instincts supported and enhanced by Admiral's own knowledge and ideas. So, many attacks are rather straightforward and 'simplistic', though no less effective.

    If you could provide a description of these moves, I would be gratefull as it would help tremendously to add some more maneuvres. Also, if you are capable, I would like some advice on how to level these maneuvres. Supplex-style attacks for example should be lower than piledrivers but I still have no idea where to put them...

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    some examples:

    RKO : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fJU-ijE6jQ

    choke slam + tombstone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7m2DurHXP4

    450° splash : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgkU6jEIHIk

    just watch WWE , you have many other moves, some of them are just variations of those you created for the discipline ^^
    Last edited by umbrapolaris; 2010-12-18 at 09:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Saw the vids you posted and some more on my own. They are good ideas, but more likely they would need some adaptation for battlefield use. After all, you can't afford to fall on your ass in the midst of combat. Neither do you have 10-20 seconds to start a piledriver or supplex. You need to be fast. So, there would be many variations.

    For example, Boulder Drop is like the Splash. Only difference? You don't fall with your chest first, but with your elbow, driving it right into the opponent's guts. Which is more likely than not outlawed in WWE since it is a lethal move. Chokeslam would probably be performed faster and also adding the user's body weight to the count as well. Piledrivers would be made Nene-style (look for Nene in Warriors Orochi, she might be a ninja with only one ninja technique, but her piledriver is serious business), as in made quickly and also adding a leap to the attack to add even more force.

    But all in all, WWE IS one of the major inspiration points for this discipline along with God of War's finishers.

    Choke-slamming great wyrms... Now THAT's Admiral's idea! And one I would love to see! Just the look on the poor dragon's face... priceless!

    EDIT: Also check out Chin Na, or Joint Locking techniques in Kung Fu. Y'see, while most of the techinques here depend on strength, more than a few of them require accuracy and expert knowledge of body mechanics. So, these guys DO read occasionally. They just like to practice more. Preferably on their poor opponents...

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    First off, I really like the concept and flavor of this discipline.

    One thing I think you should be very wary of is over-specifying what the moves entail. Doing wrestling research is always good to get an idea of what combatants should be capable of, but I don't think you want to come up with a maneuver for every single efficient-looking move you can find. Instead, I suggest you focus on the result of the attack, such as pinning the opponent's arms or fracturing something important. Even as I say that, I realize you could take that approach to just about any style of D&D fighting and end up with a debuff-centric set, so I guess do what you think is best.

    The other thing is: good luck with stuff like dislocated appendages and how to abjudicate that. It goes back to the overly specified effects thing. Unless the players are using extensive "realistic" houserules, you're probably best either highlighting a couple options in the maneuver description or simply saying "something was hurt bad, take the following penalties..."

    Also, if you're looking for more moves to think on, I'd consider looking into groundfighting styles like brazillian jiu-jitsu. If you want to focus on using martial moves against people who are armed (be it swords or guns), look into Systema. Krav Maga is good stuff, too, but Systema is basically a russian takedown/groundfighting style that also has a strong emphasis on real world use (disarming hostile assailants and the like).

    Specifics for maneuvers:

    Those that require an unarmed attack roll (presumably, third fist) can afford to be a bit high on the power level, relative to their maneuver level. Any build with highly optimized unarmed attacks is losing levels in ToB classes to do so, so it should balance out just fine. I would put Third Fist at 2nd level, with Foe Hammer and the Stone Dragon maneuver that ignores hardness. Probably +2d6 damage just like those manuevers, but with a chance to stun or daze.

    Burst the Binding Chains doesn't need to be labeled as a Strike. Left as a counter, it can still be used on your turn (immediate actions used on your turn use your swift action instead), so unless you intend it as a tactical decision to lose your standard action in order to keep your round's swift action (??), I'd say lose the Strike verbiage.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-12-18 at 01:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    I try not to overspecify the maneuvres. I just want to have a different description as to why exactly a higher level maneuvre does exactly what a lower level one but only better. There should be a reason other than 'it's higher level' or some idiocy like that.

    Dislocated appendages are easy; a minor penalty to actions linked to said limb until a Heal check is applied DC 15 or something. In which case the victim receives a bit of subdual damage from the pain, unless a healing spell is applied (even a cure minor would be enough). But even if it isn't, then the damage isn't enough to cripple the guy. I was thinking along 1D6 or something.

    Breaking is harsher; requires Heal checks and a downtime (which can be reduced via healing spells) so they will obviously be of higher level.

    For the maneuvres:

    Almost all will require a roll of some sort, be it an attack roll or a grapple check. Though, being in a grapple could place some hefty penalties, especially if pinned. But almost all maneuvres are breakable/defendable. Just very hard to do so. Especially with things like Titan's Clutch, which lets you act as if two sizes bigger. Ever seen halflings wrestling ogres to the ground? Now you can!

    Burst the Binding Chains is a feat of raw strength requiring one to coil his muscles before uncoiling them simulatenously. While possible to be performed quickly, I would label it as a Strike but give it an initiation time of one move action. Good, but not enough to simply make all forms of restraint ineffective. Also, it leaves some time to grapple back at the enemy.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    I think this is a hugely awesome discipline and I look forward to it being completed. As for me, though, I'd try to stay away from pro-wrestling moves... mostly because I don't really care for pro wrestling, but also because I think there is better source material out there for this kind of stuff.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Looks like a fun discipline. I may come back to it for inspiration if I revise my own grappling discipline (forgive the thread if the name of the discipline is inconsistent; the fluff has already changed a few times)
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblazer87 View Post
    Saw the vids you posted and some more on my own. They are good ideas, but more likely they would need some adaptation for battlefield use. After all, you can't afford to fall on your ass in the midst of combat. Neither do you have 10-20 seconds to start a piledriver or supplex. You need to be fast. So, there would be many variations.

    For example, Boulder Drop is like the Splash. Only difference? You don't fall with your chest first, but with your elbow, driving it right into the opponent's guts. Which is more likely than not outlawed in WWE since it is a lethal move. Chokeslam would probably be performed faster and also adding the user's body weight to the count as well. Piledrivers would be made Nene-style (look for Nene in Warriors Orochi, she might be a ninja with only one ninja technique, but her piledriver is serious business), as in made quickly and also adding a leap to the attack to add even more force.

    But all in all, WWE IS one of the major inspiration points for this discipline along with God of War's finishers.

    Choke-slamming great wyrms... Now THAT's Admiral's idea! And one I would love to see! Just the look on the poor dragon's face... priceless!

    EDIT: Also check out Chin Na, or Joint Locking techniques in Kung Fu. Y'see, while most of the techinques here depend on strength, more than a few of them require accuracy and expert knowledge of body mechanics. So, these guys DO read occasionally. They just like to practice more. Preferably on their poor opponents...
    I'm going to agree that a lot of WWE moves are too flashy and slow for the use with the Crimson Fang discipline. This is supposed to be ruthlessly efficient, after all. No wasted movements or fanciness, it's all straight down to business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    First off, I really like the concept and flavor of this discipline.

    One thing I think you should be very wary of is over-specifying what the moves entail. Doing wrestling research is always good to get an idea of what combatants should be capable of, but I don't think you want to come up with a maneuver for every single efficient-looking move you can find. Instead, I suggest you focus on the result of the attack, such as pinning the opponent's arms or fracturing something important. Even as I say that, I realize you could take that approach to just about any style of D&D fighting and end up with a debuff-centric set, so I guess do what you think is best.

    The other thing is: good luck with stuff like dislocated appendages and how to abjudicate that. It goes back to the overly specified effects thing. Unless the players are using extensive "realistic" houserules, you're probably best either highlighting a couple options in the maneuver description or simply saying "something was hurt bad, take the following penalties..."

    Also, if you're looking for more moves to think on, I'd consider looking into groundfighting styles like brazillian jiu-jitsu. If you want to focus on using martial moves against people who are armed (be it swords or guns), look into Systema. Krav Maga is good stuff, too, but Systema is basically a russian takedown/groundfighting style that also has a strong emphasis on real world use (disarming hostile assailants and the like).

    Specifics for maneuvers:

    Those that require an unarmed attack roll (presumably, third fist) can afford to be a bit high on the power level, relative to their maneuver level. Any build with highly optimized unarmed attacks is losing levels in ToB classes to do so, so it should balance out just fine. I would put Third Fist at 2nd level, with Foe Hammer and the Stone Dragon maneuver that ignores hardness. Probably +2d6 damage just like those manuevers, but with a chance to stun or daze.

    Burst the Binding Chains doesn't need to be labeled as a Strike. Left as a counter, it can still be used on your turn (immediate actions used on your turn use your swift action instead), so unless you intend it as a tactical decision to lose your standard action in order to keep your round's swift action (??), I'd say lose the Strike verbiage.
    Well, I'm not researching wrestling so much as I am grasping moves, techniques that actually see use in combat. But yes, you do have a point. Over-focusing on the physical actions of the maneuver limits us in a world where you can be fighting monsters of all description. Things don't always have a head to aim for.

    As for dislocated/broken appendages, It can be handled well with a little bit of work.

    Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, systema, Krav Maga, got it. I'll be sure to check them out. Also, Krav Maga sound like a really AWESOME name for a dragon or something.

    On the issue of unarmed attacks, what about the unarmed swordsage? They're not losing any levels to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblazer87 View Post
    I try not to overspecify the maneuvres. I just want to have a different description as to why exactly a higher level maneuvre does exactly what a lower level one but only better. There should be a reason other than 'it's higher level' or some idiocy like that.

    Dislocated appendages are easy; a minor penalty to actions linked to said limb until a Heal check is applied DC 15 or something. In which case the victim receives a bit of subdual damage from the pain, unless a healing spell is applied (even a cure minor would be enough). But even if it isn't, then the damage isn't enough to cripple the guy. I was thinking along 1D6 or something.

    Breaking is harsher; requires Heal checks and a downtime (which can be reduced via healing spells) so they will obviously be of higher level.

    For the maneuvres:

    Almost all will require a roll of some sort, be it an attack roll or a grapple check. Though, being in a grapple could place some hefty penalties, especially if pinned. But almost all maneuvres are breakable/defendable. Just very hard to do so. Especially with things like Titan's Clutch, which lets you act as if two sizes bigger. Ever seen halflings wrestling ogres to the ground? Now you can!

    Burst the Binding Chains is a feat of raw strength requiring one to coil his muscles before uncoiling them simulatenously. While possible to be performed quickly, I would label it as a Strike but give it an initiation time of one move action. Good, but not enough to simply make all forms of restraint ineffective. Also, it leaves some time to grapple back at the enemy.
    I don't think I agree with your way of handling dislocated/broken bones. Yes, it's realistic, but it hurts the PCs more than the monsters. I'd just say that magical healing from a spell higher-level than the maneuver would be required to fix it, and in the meantime, either the limb is inoperable, or the character just takes a huge penalty to strength.

    I think I'm going to side with the prior poster, burst the binding chains should just be a counter, or there should be some significant benefit to using it as a strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeofar View Post
    I think this is a hugely awesome discipline and I look forward to it being completed. As for me, though, I'd try to stay away from pro-wrestling moves... mostly because I don't really care for pro wrestling, but also because I think there is better source material out there for this kind of stuff.
    I'm going to agree with you, honestly. If any wrestling moves come into play, they're going to be heavily modified for speed and efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by playswithfire View Post
    Looks like a fun discipline. I may come back to it for inspiration if I revise my own grappling discipline (forgive the thread if the name of the discipline is inconsistent; the fluff has already changed a few times)
    That might be a lot of help, actually, do you mind if I steal some ideas/wordings from it?

    EDIT:
    Also, I'm looking for a good picture to use in the firswt post. Anyone who brings me a satisfactory pic will be rewarded with a internet-cookie.
    Last edited by Admiral Squish; 2010-12-18 at 07:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblazer87 View Post
    Dislocated appendages are easy; a minor penalty to actions linked to said limb until a Heal check is applied DC 15 or something. In which case the victim receives a bit of subdual damage from the pain, unless a healing spell is applied (even a cure minor would be enough). But even if it isn't, then the damage isn't enough to cripple the guy. I was thinking along 1D6 or something.

    Breaking is harsher; requires Heal checks and a downtime (which can be reduced via healing spells) so they will obviously be of higher level.
    I understand where you're coming from, but I have 2 issues with it. The first is that this is a grappling discipline, and grappling rules are by and far the most convoluted rules possible. You're adding a new layer of rules on top of that. The second issue is that as soon as you implement this, non-Crimson Fang users will want a slice of that pie. And now you're looking at what I was referring to as "more realistic" house rules.

    That said, I guess if you don't mind including all of that into the text of a maneuver, go for it.

    Burst the Binding Chains is a feat of raw strength requiring one to coil his muscles before uncoiling them simulatenously. While possible to be performed quickly, I would label it as a Strike but give it an initiation time of one move action. Good, but not enough to simply make all forms of restraint ineffective. Also, it leaves some time to grapple back at the enemy.
    I don't think you get what I was saying. Thematically, sure go for it. But it's currently listed as "strike/counter". If it's usable as a counter, that means it has an immediate action usage time, meaning it's completely redundant to label it as a strike. If you want it to be a move action, then you need to remove the Counter tag. Also, if you go this route, you don't need it to be a Strike either. Some things such as White Raven Tactics and the Shadow Hand teleports use actions during your turn but don't affect opponents and are therefore simply untyped "martial maneuvers".

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    On the issue of unarmed attacks, what about the unarmed swordsage? They're not losing any levels to use it.
    3/4 BAB, impossible/very expensive to enchant unarmed attacks, no or very few +attack effects. In a lot of ways, Unarmed Swordsage still has a lot of catching up to do with armed combatants.

    EDIT: just occurred to me, thinking about just how convoluted Grappling rules are. Perhaps it'd be cool to put a few things in maneuvers that skip steps. i.e. granting improved grab, maybe a strike that cuts out one roll or another. Some of these maneuvers already do this, so I suppose you guys are already doing quite swell (reversing grapple, saving you from having to succeed at checks for a turn; boost to initiate a grapple upon successful attack is effectively one-time improved grab).
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-12-18 at 08:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Rather than WWE and other faked wrestling styles, you should check out some actual martial arts styles. Almost all involve some form of ground fighting/joint locks/holds. Some are even based off of them (Judo, BJJ, etc).

    MMA fights almost always go to ground game, which would let you see the moves used in an actual fight.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    i agree too that do a copy-paste of the pro-wrestling movess dont fit to the discipline, but some of them are efficient coz they come from true martial arts(they just add flashy postures and wait 3h before throwing the guy; its just a show) but htey can be easily modified.

    some other sources of inspiration can also be the moves of "realistic" fighting video games, like Virtua Fighter or Soulcalibur (virtua fighter is really realistic, they adapted true martial arts).
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Even though I agree that a fake martial art is not suited to the battlefield, can you disagree that a properly executed chokeslam, altered for maximum damage, would be very dangerous?

    Keep in mind that this is not a discipline for those of lithe build and slight bodies; it's for those of built physiques and high muscle toning. Think Zangief.

    So, even though many martial arts are usefull, they are mostly made for slighter people, which is why they wouldn't really fit in. Still, several of the maneuvres use functional grappling techniques; I try to avoid using all of them because it would be pointless. But joint locking, joint breaking, size-altering and dislocating maneuvres are almost all from styles such as Kung Fu and JiuJitsu. Just made to favour muscle over litheness and grace.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    pro-wrestling if used seriously in a lethal way is one of the most dangerous, most moves can break spine, neck, vertebra, letting the victim incapacitated for life or even paralyzed, etc...

    zangief is the paragon of grappling in SF, it was funny to saw other player laugh when i select him and then see them cry when i finish them in 3 moves ^^

    japanese Aikido, used grapple technique with in a soft way, i saw an old master grapple 10 opponents at same time. using the left hand to maintains the "chain" of grappled opponents, and using the right hand to add opponents to the chain ^^
    Last edited by umbrapolaris; 2010-12-19 at 01:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Then, my friend, you seriously need to read History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi. Seriously, look for it. One of the dojo teachers is a jujitsu master; he once made a self-maintained grapple circle of about 20 opponents. He didn't even have to grab them any more; he locked their joints so that everyone effectively joint-locked everyone else! Very, VERY fun moment.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    That might be a lot of help, actually, do you mind if I steal some ideas/wordings from it?
    Feel free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    On the issue of unarmed attacks, what about the unarmed swordsage? They're not losing any levels to use it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    3/4 BAB, impossible/very expensive to enchant unarmed attacks, no or very few +attack effects. In a lot of ways, Unarmed Swordsage still has a lot of catching up to do with armed combatants.
    If you have Savage Species, there's a wondrous item, Necklace of Natural Attacks(?), that lets you enchant your natural weapons including a monk/swordsage's unarmed strikes for basically the same cost of enchanting any other weapons.

    As for BAB, one of the things I added for my grappling discipline was a feat that was its version of Shadow Blade; lets you add your Wis modifier to grapple checks while in a stance from the discipline (capped by IL). It seemed a nice way to offset the lower BAB. I also made it usable in place of Clever Wrestling so Reaping Mauler isn't completely pointless.
    Last edited by playswithfire; 2010-12-19 at 08:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    The 3/5 BAB isn't such a bad deal really.

    Think about it. With Crimson Fang you can ensure the grappling and during it deprive your opponent of at least some AC (I think it kills their Dex-based AC though it doesn't leave them vulnerable to sneak attacks but I may be wrong).

    Then, just use high-damage attacks that require a lot of luck to succeed, such as Diamond Nightmare Blade (which requires two successfull checks but for x4 damage) or even some from Tiger Claw that require Jump checks that could now be made at a much lower AC, ensuring the blow.

    I can hardly see a swordsage picking this up though; suits Warblades more I think. Hmmm... Heavy armor with spikes and spiked gauntlets with Superior Unarmed Strike... Maybe even Thri-Kreen race for UBER stats and abilities? Yikes... Someone ban that race already!

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Note that I said no or few ways of enhancing their unarmed attacks -- an amulet of mighty fists costs 3 times as much as a magic weapon of the same grade. And that's if your group uses enough sources and pores through a lot of potential magic items.

    I'm not saying unarmed swordsage is awful, just like monk. I'm saying anyone who can optimize their crimson fang user to have great grapple checks, great accuracy, and good damage besides, friggin' deserves it. Ergo, you can ere on the side of "powerful for their level" for all maneuvers which are making you make unarmed attack rolls and such.

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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Note that I said no or few ways of enhancing their unarmed attacks -- an amulet of mighty fists costs 3 times as much as a magic weapon of the same grade. And that's if your group uses enough sources and pores through a lot of potential magic items.

    I'm not saying unarmed swordsage is awful, just like monk. I'm saying anyone who can optimize their crimson fang user to have great grapple checks, great accuracy, and good damage besides, friggin' deserves it. Ergo, you can ere on the side of "powerful for their level" for all maneuvers which are making you make unarmed attack rolls and such.
    Amulet of Mighty Fists is awful. Get a Necklace of Natural Weapons. For one natural weapon, it costs 600 GP plus the normal cost of an enchanted weapon. You can even add special abilities to it. If you have more natural weapons, you multiply the total cost by the number of natural weapons. It's from Savage Species.

    Just wanted to point that out real fast, I'm going to respond to everything else already said soon.
    Last edited by Admiral Squish; 2010-12-21 at 12:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Crimson Fang [3.5 ToB discipline]

    I've written some levels on my off-time but you changed many names so I'll have to change mine :D

    If things go well, I should have the first three levels done by tomorrow and maybe post them even. Damn, this one's going slow and noone even commented on Ice Eternal D:

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