Thuerge class help!

[GodGoblin]

Hey guys my character is currently a Psion (Nomad) 3 and due to RP reasons will be taking some levels of wizard and then into Cerebremancer. Simple!

But! I have just been thinking about using the Archivist class instead of wizard and im not sure if there is a Psionic/Divine thuerge class.

Could you guys point me towards one? And in general and Thuerge advice or tips on Archivist would be grand

Thanks in advance!

[Psyren]

Here you go

[GodGoblin]

Ah perfect! But now what class do you think would be best?

Just some more info if it helps:

Character at the moment

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My Psion powers currently move more towards blasting but as I get higher level powers I will be teleporting and focusing battlefield control. The character is Francis De'Werner in my signiture

Fluff

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The fluff behind the classes is that the party are slaves and taken to an exotic new continent (Sandstorm) and were sent to fetch relics from the Star mages tomb. We are now free from the slavers and my character has taken an interest in the Star mage's work and now has access to alot of his research and findings. The Star mage was a wizard/cleric focusing on astronomy style magic so Wizard or Archivist both could easily fit as I am learning through studying his work.

[Psyren]

The best way to use Psychic Theurge is with an Ardent (CPsi) and Ur-Priest (CDiv). The fluff is dead-on, you use Wisdom for both classes and you can get both 9th-level powers and spells easily.

However, a Psion/Archivist can still work very well. Make Archivist the main class; you won't get dual-9s (not that you need those to be uber anyway) but since high-level spells tend to be better than high-level powers you can live with Psion being the lower of the two. The best psionic powers tend to be concentrated around mid-levels - Schism, Psychic Reformation, Temporal Acceleration, Solicit Psicrystal etc. Use your Psion side to muck with the action economy while your Archivist side is the build's muscle. Practiced Manifester and Practiced Spellcaster will help you deal with the lost caster levels on both sides of the build, with the former being more important if you're low on feats. Finally, check both the Archivist and Psion handbooks for tips on feat, power and spell selection.

Don't forget also to make use of psionic spells, like Dweomer of Transference (cast on yourself of course.) This lets you convert your low-level spell slots into psionic energy, keeping them relevant at higher-levels.

[GodGoblin]

Ooh that spell is great! A definate one if I go either Wizard or Archivist.

Archivist is winning a bit at the moment in my mind but Wizard is still creeping about, mainly because I get a familiar and thats a big Rp thing with the character.

Any reasons to choose one over the other?

[Psyren]

Flavor mostly. Do you want to be Divine or Arcane?

Power-wise, Wizards do have quite an edge - Wizards are more SAD because they can dump Wis, whereas Archivists need a little Wisdom for their bonus spells. The Archivist has more base spells/day, but this is easily overcome by (a) The Wizard basing his bonus spells off Int and (b) Focused Specialist - drop 3 schools of magic and you catch up to the Archivist.

You can safely drop Evocation, Enchantment and Abjuration/Necromancy or even Transmutation, using your psionics to cover for the gap. (Psychokinesis and Telepathy are much better anyway.)

If you pick up the Mind Mage from Dragon Magazine (Google it, can't link) you can even get to 9th-level powers and 8th-level spells. But again, I recommend high-level spells over high-level powers.

[GodGoblin]

Well only having a Wis of 13 has me pretty set on Wizard now, I though Archivist was Int too actually but nevermind, and focused specialist seems like a good idea too, but I will have to have a think on what school to take.

And yeah I totally agree on the higher level spells than powers idea, but I will still take a look at mind mage. Thanks a lot you have been a great help!

[Psyren]

Archivist is Int-based actually (for highest spell level and spell DCs, the two most important uses of your casting stat). Wis 13 is perfectly fine for an Archivist, especially when you can buff it up higher as needed (including via Wish/Miracle). They also have the advantage of being able to cast in full plate, and can learn most wizard spells with some creativity.

Wizards do work better for this out of the box, however. (StP Erudites work great too.)

[GodGoblin]

Oh right I see, well at the moment Wizard is the choice but I havent had the chance to read over Archivist yet so that may change, hmm this is a tougher choice than I had imagined

[Psyren]

Archivist's key strengths are class features and spell access. You lose the former by theurging (aka no Dread Secret) and the latter is campaign-dependent; there's no guarantee you can find, say, Paladin or Divine Bard scrolls, and even Druid scrolls may be tough to locate given their distrusting nature. Even with cleric spells, some domains may be tough to locate.

If such scrolls are readily available in your campaign, Archivists can eclipse Wizards in terms of utility - you'll effectively have access to the spells and abilities of an entire cadre of casters. If you're stuck with cleric spells, you'll still be powerful, but the Wizard's various advantages will start to shine through.

[GodGoblin]

Ok well I have a ancient super casters library at my disposal and im pals with his immortal elf buddy so finding scrolls shouldnt be a problem, and I think the tipping point will be what the Archivists class abilities give me with just 3 levels.

As a silly side thought how about I take 3 levels of Archivist AND 3 levels of Wizard, then rotate between Mind Mage, Mystic Theurge and Cerebramancer! SUPER CASTER MAN!

[AyeGill]

You say you have access to a bunch of "The Star Mage"'s research? That would include spellbooks and stuff like that, maybe? if so, go with Archivist, if you can generally expect to find lots of scrolls and spellbooks then it beats wizard in my opinion, since you'd be able to learn this guys cleric spells as well.

Also, you can do anything you want in full plate armor. thats awesome.

EDIT: ninjaed. if thats the case, definitely go archivist. a tri-caster would be a REALLY bad idea, unless you pull something crazy like psion/wizard/bard/sublime chord/ur-priest/psychic theurge(advancing ur-priest)/cerebremancer(advancing sublime chord). that would be pretty pimp, though.

[Psyren]

Between domains and other lists, you can get most of the wizard spells as an archivist anyway

I'll complicate the issue further - if your DM allows early entry, you can get into Cerebremancer with only one level of Wizard via Precocious Apprentice. Doing the same with an Archivist/PT is harder - you need to be an Illumian (a nice race for this concept, mind, but you may have wanted something else) for Improved Sigil: Krau.

With these tricks, you can enter Cerebremancer with only 1 level of Wizard or Archivist, and 3 levels of Psion.

Illumian Archivists have another advantage - they can swap their bonus spells from Wis to Dex ("Uurkrau"), allowing you to dump Wis and get your spells from a much better stat. Between your titanic Will save and Still Mind you won't even notice the lack.

[GodGoblin]

Ok so yeah im pretty settled on Archivist now, and ive heard about Precocious apprentice, how does it work? Is it a feat?

Edit: Just found it and sadly can only be taken at 1st level

[Psyren]

It wouldn't work with Archivist anyway - it's for arcane casters.

Krau Illumian will though, unless you had another race in mind.

[Mongoose87]

He already has a character - I doubt changing race is currently an option.

[Wabbajack]

Well, that means it's time for reincarnation and some lucky dice!

Joke aside, could you list your race and maybe stats and stuff?

EDIT: Ah, he's in your sig, sorry for me not seeing that >.<

EDIT 2: You could try to get a Psychic Reformation, through a NPC manifester of a Power Stone to change your skills to get the necessary Know (Psy) and Know (Rel) and maybe change some feats when you're at it.

[Psyren]

He already has a character - I doubt changing race is currently an option.

That depends on his DM, but if he really wants to he can do it later and retrain/reform. He could reincarnate, true mind switch, polymorph any object and then mind switch (or just plain PAO) etc.

[AyeGill]

As a follow-up to the suggestion about a tri-theurge, i came up with this build:
psion 5/bard 1/ur-priest 1/Psychic Theurge 5/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Cerebremancer 5

you need to take versatile spellcaster and heighten spell before level 12 to get into sublime chord(casting a bard spell heightened to level 3, using 2 level 2 ur-priest slots), but otherwise you're set. You wind up with psion 15 manifesting(8th level powers), sublime chord 9 arcane casting(9th's) Ur-Priest 9 Divine casting(9th's). If you substitute erudite for psion, and take practiced manifester, you can learn 9th-level powers too.

[GodGoblin]

Well changing race isnt really an option but still good to have in mind, I still have 3 levels of Archivist to take and I get a good few skill points so the knowledge ranks wont be a problem.

@AyeGill: That is one hell of a build, triple 9th level casting? May have to use that in a latter game

So any fun tricks combining divine and psionic casting?

[AyeGill]

Well changing race isnt really an option but still good to have in mind, I still have 3 levels of Archivist to take and I get a good few skill points so the knowledge ranks wont be a problem.

@AyeGill: That is one hell of a build, triple 9th level casting? May have to use that in a latter game

Thank you. Currently working on a gestalt version that uses the other side to nab binding and initiating(maneuvers), and get full manifesting. I'm also gonna add in invocation-usage for good measure.