What system for truly heroic fantasy?

[Heliomance]

When this question comes up, as it does, regular as clockwork, the opinion is always voiced that the only way to model heroic fantasy in D&D is to play E6. But I don't think that works. I'd like to play in a game where wizards are mysterious, powerful beings beyond the ken of most, where magic items are rare and powerful, and a truly great champion might have perhaps two, both of them with names and histories. A game where you don't leave the path for fear of the Fair Folk. A game where a dragon can ravage a town and leave it in fear.

And yet, a game where a knight in shining armour can vanquish the mighty dragon. A game where a cunning rogue can slip in and make off with riches to fill his wildest dreams without the dragon ever having known he was there. A game where after a long, hard battle, the stout warrior can wrestle the hydra into submission, where the mysterious temple warrior can leap the height of a building, where the charming herald can trick the Faerie Queen into a bargain she did not intend.

Is there a system which lets you be heroic, without having magic be the answer to everything? Does my fantasy exist?

[O_Y]

I really like FATE for games where the players are supposed to be larger-than-life heroes. It's pretty flexible in terms of genre, and it has a free SRD.

It's not as rules-heavy as D&D or as tactical, so it's not going to have the same degree of specific rulings or wargame-style mechanical intricacy, but it's very malleable, collaborative and quick to play.

[The Rose Dragon]

Play a game of Exalted without being Exalted. Of course, that might be less heroic fantasy and more horror fantasy, but still, you'll find that magic is not gonna solve all your problems, and that the Fair Folk are still scary.

If you want the heroic part, you can always play Terrestrials. Anything higher gets you in the realm of epic, which you probably want to avoid.

Alternately, you can play Blue Rose, Ghosts of Albion or All Flesh Must Be Eaten (plus Dungeons & Zombies sans zombies). Or, if you are OK with wuxia flavor, Qin: the Warring States and Weapons of the Gods.

[Bizlowe]

I've noticed that the Savage World's system can be a really good way to run this kind of game. It is however a super flexible system in terms of genre so the extent of "super-heroicness" stems very highly from the GM's vision.

[Godskook]

Wushu with some ground-rules as concerns flavor?

[Raum]

Is there a system which lets you be heroic, without having magic be the answer to everything? Does my fantasy exist?

FATE, Savage Worlds, GURPS, Barbarians of Lemuria, Risus, and many more. Most of what you describe isn't really system dependent however, there are many systems which support heroic scale gaming better than D&D. With a bit more detail on what you want the system to do or avoid, we might be able to make more specific suggestions! :)

[Frozen_Feet]

Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

Conan RPG Second edition.

The former is a pretty straight-forward "retroclone" of early D&D, but its design philosophy and the playstyle advocated in the books might appeal to you.

The latter is d20 ruleset for playing in Hyborian age in the vein of Robart E. Howard's stories, but with some elements closer to AD&D than 3.5 D&D. I've only recently come acquianted with Conan RPG, but I like the way sorcery rules are implemented in it, and it has many little things making melee combat a good choice.

Check them out.

[woodenbandman]

Consider burning wheel. It's got pretty gritty combat and it is definitely very "old-school" feel to the narrative.

[Amphetryon]

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game 2e comes pretty close.

[J.Gellert]

When this question comes up, as it does, regular as clockwork, the opinion is always voiced that the only way to model heroic fantasy in D&D is to play E6. But I don't think that works. I'd like to play in a game where wizards are mysterious, powerful beings beyond the ken of most, where magic items are rare and powerful, and a truly great champion might have perhaps two, both of them with names and histories. A game where you don't leave the path for fear of the Fair Folk. A game where a dragon can ravage a town and leave it in fear.

And yet, a game where a knight in shining armour can vanquish the mighty dragon. A game where a cunning rogue can slip in and make off with riches to fill his wildest dreams without the dragon ever having known he was there. A game where after a long, hard battle, the stout warrior can wrestle the hydra into submission, where the mysterious temple warrior can leap the height of a building, where the charming herald can trick the Faerie Queen into a bargain she did not intend.

Is there a system which lets you be heroic, without having magic be the answer to everything? Does my fantasy exist?

The first half sounded like Conan D20... the second half like Mutants & Masterminds... So, uh, Warriors & Warlocks maybe?

But I don't see why you cannot do the above in D&D 3,5 (or older), you just need a DM who believes in this kind of setting. Most of what you mentioned is flavor...

Sure, people will make you believe that wizards are the answer to everything, and that even fighters must abide by Wealth By Level, but honestly. If your DM says wizards are rare, they are rare. If your DM says no magic items, then you just fight monsters of lower CR. If your DM says your +35 Diplomacy bonus allows you to sweet-talk the Dark Queen, then that's what happens.

Anyway, yes, I feel what you are saying, so here are the specifics... Mutants & Masterminds allows you to be awesome with zero magic (that's the norm in the Warriors & Warlocks sourcebook), it's you and not your items (unless you want to have a few signature objects), and you can base a campaign entirely on the old Conan stories. Or Prince Valiant or whatever.

I've been using it a lot for fantasy so I can fully reccommend it. And the idea of using a "Supers" system hadn't struck me until I realized this wasn't a "Supers" system at all.

[Kiero]

I really like FATE for games where the players are supposed to be larger-than-life heroes. It's pretty flexible in terms of genre, and it has a free SRD.

It's not as rules-heavy as D&D or as tactical, so it's not going to have the same degree of specific rulings or wargame-style mechanical intricacy, but it's very malleable, collaborative and quick to play.

More accurately, FATE 2.0 is a toolkit from which you have to build your own system. Alternatively with FATE 3.0, there's Legends of Anglerre which is designed for fantasy and is eminently suited to it.

Two variant incarnations of FATE 3.0 are available as SRDs, see Spirit of the Century and Diaspora.

Wushu with some ground-rules as concerns flavor?

Check out Open Reloaded.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game 2e comes pretty close.

Hahaha.

[Psyx]

The first half made WFRP2 sound perfect... but it's not high enough fantasy for what you want. Dragon Warriors is a very old paper-back based game that was pretty darned good. I enjoyed that and the published adventures were both Arthurian in feel and well written.

[Heliomance]

I guess what I'm looking for is something close to the power level of D&D, but without the feeling of magic being as common as muck. Magic should be special, earth-shaking in its potential, but terrifying and only granted to a few, whether they be brave or foolhardy is up for debate. It shouldn't be a matter of slinging off a bolt in a few seconds, it should be rituals taking months to raise land from the sea. A wizard should be able to hold an entire kingdom to ransom, but when adventurers come knocking on the door, he shouldn't just be able to wave his hand and have them gone.

I want to play a character who is Just That Good (TM), not one that's made that good because of all the shiny trinkets he's picked up along his travels.

[Kiero]

I guess what I'm looking for is something close to the power level of D&D, but without the feeling of magic being as common as muck. Magic should be special, earth-shaking in its potential, but terrifying and only granted to a few, whether they be brave or foolhardy is up for debate. It shouldn't be a matter of slinging off a bolt in a few seconds, it should be rituals taking months to raise land from the sea. A wizard should be able to hold an entire kingdom to ransom, but when adventurers come knocking on the door, he shouldn't just be able to wave his hand and have them gone.

I want to play a character who is Just That Good (TM), not one that's made that good because of all the shiny trinkets he's picked up along his travels.

Sounding more and more like Legends of Anglerre could be your thing, it was designed with equivalence to D&D (but without actually being D&D) in mind. Depending on what resources you give characters, they can be at any equivalent D&D level. Magic can be tailored to whatever feel you want, without breaking the system. Stuff is a lot less important to characters, and there's a large degree to which your characters motivations, goals and so on are more important than the fact that they can swing a sword good, or chuck a fireball.

I could only find one review in text, and one in video from Game Geeks. Here's a one-page summary of the rules, if it helps any. It's a single, stand-alone book requiring nothing else to play.

It comes down to whether or not you like the FATE 3.0 system. The major stumbling block is Aspects, things about your character (rather than merely what they can do) that really matter to the player and can influence what goes on.

[Cespenar]

I'm of the thought that D&D 3.5 is able to cater to your every need with the proper houserules and homebrew. Though sometimes, of course, the said houserules and homebrew might be too much to do on your own.

[Psyx]

I'd not recommend re-tooling an inherently poor system, when there are better games out there...

[JaronK]

D&D can do it if you keep to non magical (or at least only demi-magical) classes, but you have to house rule in a few things. A big issue for what you want is that D&D assumes you've got plenty of magical gear floating about, which really loses the whole "this magic sword is actually special" aspect. In D&D, magic items are just tools. A Fighter's magic sword is no different from a real life soldier's rifle. It's not special, it just gets the job done.

You can homebrew stuff to avoid that. I like giving everybody in the party (and all other class leveled NPCs and enemies) a bonus similar to that of vow of poverty, and then cutting their WBL to 1/10th normal. That way, a Fighter is still actually decent even if he's been stripped of all his gear and had to punch out a guard to steal his (mundane) sword. With some work, you can do it this way. You do have to modify VoP a good bit to make it happen, though.

I'm afraid I've never played a system that got what you're looking for quite right of the box though. Which is kinda sad.

JaronK

[Eldan]

There is the possibility in D&D to make magic more dangerous and exotic. Ban spellcasting classes, but introduce Incantations, maybe Binders as well. That should work pretty nicely.

[Havelock]

Fantasy Craft could do the trick.

Although you can always customize D&D or whatever system into doing what you want it to.

[Raum]

I guess what I'm looking for is something close to the power level of D&D, but without the feeling of magic being as common as muck. Magic should be special, earth-shaking in its potential, but terrifying and only granted to a few, whether they be brave or foolhardy is up for debate. It shouldn't be a matter of slinging off a bolt in a few seconds, it should be rituals taking months to raise land from the sea. A wizard should be able to hold an entire kingdom to ransom, but when adventurers come knocking on the door, he shouldn't just be able to wave his hand and have them gone.

I want to play a character who is Just That Good (TM), not one that's made that good because of all the shiny trinkets he's picked up along his travels.

I'll second Kiero on LoA and also suggest looking at DFRPG. While DFRPG is a modern setting, its magic / powers system could easily be moved to your favorite fantasy setting.

[Frozen_Feet]

I guess what I'm looking for is something close to the power level of D&D, but without the feeling of magic being as common as muck. Magic should be special, earth-shaking in its potential, but terrifying and only granted to a few, whether they be brave or foolhardy is up for debate. It shouldn't be a matter of slinging off a bolt in a few seconds, it should be rituals taking months to raise land from the sea. A wizard should be able to hold an entire kingdom to ransom, but when adventurers come knocking on the door, he shouldn't just be able to wave his hand and have them gone.

I want to play a character who is Just That Good (TM), not one that's made that good because of all the shiny trinkets he's picked up along his travels.

I say it again: Conan RPG Second Edition. As a bonus, if you're familiar with d20 already, it's easy to pick up. Due to using the same base chassis, the martial classes are on a similar level (a bit better even, I'd say) than D&D, while magic has been rarified and toned down, even if it still holds potentially setting-altering power.

[Zuljita]

I think Gurps with a high enough point value taking magic off the table for PCs and some cinematic rules here and there would fit perfectly.

[Oracle_Hunter]

D&D4 has done this pretty well for me, although AD&D (or its clones, like OSRIC) probably would work as well.

If you want a really thematic game, Burning Wheel is supposed to be good.

Also: Did you mean to imply that you were looking for a more "one man" rather than "party" focused game? If so, AD&D is probably the best system.

EDIT: Ah, saw the second post. Either do D&D4 using the Inherent Bonuses system or straight-up AD&D.

[comicshorse]

I guess what I'm looking for is something close to the power level of D&D, but without the feeling of magic being as common as muck. Magic should be special, earth-shaking in its potential, but terrifying and only granted to a few, whether they be brave or foolhardy is up for debate. It shouldn't be a matter of slinging off a bolt in a few seconds, it should be rituals taking months to raise land from the sea. A wizard should be able to hold an entire kingdom to ransom, but when adventurers come knocking on the door, he shouldn't just be able to wave his hand and have them gone.

I want to play a character who is Just That Good (TM), not one that's made that good because of all the shiny trinkets he's picked up along his travels.

Pendragon, definitely Pendragon

[Hyfigh]

It depends on how rules-intense you want the system to be. I personally enjoy Mutants & Masterminds for rules-intense games because it's still flexable. I've been able to create every genre I wanted to play without issue. The nice part is, because the rules are the same, you can even mix them. I play Mini-Six for rules-lite games. It has similar flexability to M&M, but it's less rules-intense.

[Prime32]

Iron Heroes seems to fit from what I've heard of it. Anyone have any experience with it?

[The Big Dice]

Pendragon, definitely Pendragon

This.Oh god, this.

Also, D6 Fantasy.

[Sipex]

I'm going to put another vote for D&D 4th edition although it is heavily party based (but many characters can reach the heights you invision).

That said, no matter the system you choose you're going to need a DM/GM who believes in a game like this, your system of choice won't help if your DM is all gungho about gritty realism.

[Glimbur]

Riddle of Steel has a detailed combat system. Magic is risky at best. I haven't actually played it so I can't tell you if it's exactly what you are looking for, but it is very detailed in combat.

[Heliomance]

I've only played one game of 4e and I didn't really enoy it; admittedly it was a first level one-shot, but it was with a DM that I've had fantastic games with before. It also doesn't have the concept of magic as dangerous and arcane that I'd quite like.