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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    I'm helping build a wu jen (metal focus) for a new player in a PbP game.

    In reviewing the character's spell options, it was pointed out that many of the wu jen only spells are just horrible, particularly of the (metal) line. Several of the scarf and needle spells require regular ranged attacks. Not ranged touch, regular ranged. These spells were designed for a poor BAB class. What were they thinking? On top of that, the damage is often less than stellar. The iconic Iron Scarf tops out at 1d8+5 damage at 5th level. While I understand that elemental resistances and DR don't apply (even though I wonder about DR), it still seems poorly designed.

    Any suggestions for overcoming some of these challenges that don't invlove taking the same spells available to a Wizard of equivalent level? I don't think he wants to play a Magic Missile casting wu jen.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    You could, and should, look through other books and search for wizard and druid spells that would fit into the Wu Jen spell list. As a splatbook caster, it gets generally ignored when spells appear in other splatbooks, so if you use more than the PHB and CA, it would only be fair.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Steering away from metal focus might help.
    If you are set on it, houserule the spell list adding stuff form the wizard list.
    Or just play a wizard, really.

    If it were my character, I'd just use the metal focus and be happy about it.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Forged Fury View Post
    Not ranged touch, regular ranged. These spells were designed for a poor BAB class. What were they thinking?
    Assuming they were thinking, maybe they were thinking "Gish"?

    A Wu Jen / Ruathar / Spellsword / Abjurant Champion / Eldritch Knight could probably make those attacks pretty reliably ...
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    If that player likes the flavor/fluff of the Wu-Jen but dose not mind being a spontanious(Sorcerer-like) divine caster then you may want to have them look into the Shugenja class. It keeps the oriental feel of a Wu-Jen but with a spell list that dose not have the kind of issues you speak of. It's not that great and a sorc is better then a Shugenja in all honesty but the shugenja, unlike the Wu-Jen, has a very robust spell-list thanks to the D20 Rokugan supliments. While some of these spells are useless outside of D20 Rokugan(Spells related to Taint will only really be effective against undead and anything dealing with void points will be totally useless outside of D20 Rokugan) a lot of them are applicable to 3.5e and really help to boost the Shugenja's spell list.

    Also, if your friend is totally against being divine and dose not want to deal with the element focus(Though most likely element focus won't be an issue since they are playing a Wu-Jen right now.) the D20 Rokugan sorcerer can swap the wiz/sorc list for the shugenja list(and not by a house rule, the actual text says you can do this.) meaning they do not have to worry about element focus anymore and can grab any spells they want from the shugenja list, and unlike the shugenja are Arcane, not divine. Sure Sorcerer dose not sound as "asian" as Wu-Jen or Shugenja, but with the shugenja spell list and Asian weapons and cloths a Sorcerer can seem "Asian" enough. Also, while I am not sure if they like evil or not, a D20 Rokugan Sorcerer or Shugenja can learn "Maho" spells via scorlls. The drawback to this is the more they cast these Maho spells the more taint they aquire...but going into the Maho Tsukai class can make this far less dangerous and if your DM dose not mind some cheese then Tainted Scholar is amazing with Maho spells. Oh, and there is also the soultwister shugenja option for shugenja who don't want to aquire lots of tain for casting certain spells.(Soultwister shugenja get their elemental school/order replaced with a school/order aligened to some outer plane, most of which grant some rather evil spells to the shugenja like desecrate ect...stuff that would usually be Maho...and there are some other benifits too.)
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Forged Fury View Post
    I'm helping build a wu jen (metal focus) for a new player in a PbP game.

    In reviewing the character's spell options, it was pointed out that many of the wu jen only spells are just horrible, particularly of the (metal) line. Several of the scarf and needle spells require regular ranged attacks. Not ranged touch, regular ranged. These spells were designed for a poor BAB class. What were they thinking? On top of that, the damage is often less than stellar. The iconic Iron Scarf tops out at 1d8+5 damage at 5th level. While I understand that elemental resistances and DR don't apply (even though I wonder about DR), it still seems poorly designed.

    Any suggestions for overcoming some of these challenges that don't invlove taking the same spells available to a Wizard of equivalent level? I don't think he wants to play a Magic Missile casting wu jen.
    Can you houserule the spells to be ranged touch?
    Or how about base it on Ice Knife: +1 hit/caster but regular AC attack.
    It gives a bonus to hit while not a touch AC attacker.
    This is a decent: makes up for bab BAB.

    Lightning Blade is good. Fire Shuriken are permanent till used.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Spell Compendium recommends bolstering their list with elemental spells, including wood and metal (but not air.) Page 4
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    I second adding spells to the Wu Jen's mediocre spell list with spells that both flavorly and mechanically fit a metal-focused Wu Jen. Mostly, wizard and artificer spells/infusions to fit the spell list ideally
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Can you houserule the spells to be ranged touch?
    Or how about base it on Ice Knife: +1 hit/caster but regular AC attack.
    It gives a bonus to hit while not a touch AC attacker.
    This is a decent: makes up for bab BAB.

    Lightning Blade is good. Fire Shuriken are permanent till used.
    Aren't the shuriken supposed to be used in the same round the spell is cast, as implied by the instantaneous duration? If there is evidence to directly contradict this, pass it to me. Spell doesn't make much sense otherwise.

    Aside from following the SpC's reccomendation of adding more spells to the list, have a look at the CMage, which adds a couple of 4th level Metal spells that ignore Spell Resistance, one of which also entangles.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade Kerrin View Post
    Aren't the shuriken supposed to be used in the same round the spell is cast, as implied by the instantaneous duration? If there is evidence to directly contradict this, pass it to me. Spell doesn't make much sense otherwise.
    Nope they are real magic shuriken.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade Kerrin View Post
    Aside from following the SpC's reccomendation of adding more spells to the list, have a look at the CMage, which adds a couple of 4th level Metal spells that ignore Spell Resistance, one of which also entangles.
    That was my initial advice and they'll probably be taking it. Rain of Spines seemed nice, plus he has Sculpt Spell which adds to its flexibility.

    It seems that the spells in Complete Mage use a different design philosophy, which I guess is natural after you see how something operates in gameplay.

    It's just a shame that the earlier spells require a to-hit investiture that a caster normally doesn't require. Personally, changing the spells to ranged touch would be the way to go, in my opinion, but we don't really want to mess around with the rules and are looking for ways to compensate for the low BAB.

    He has good Knowledge skills, so I was going to suggest Knowledge Devotion to help him boost the attack roll. He'll also probably multi-class Barbarian and potentially enter Rage Mage (another class with significant challenges, but still playable at the level we're at). It's really the low-levels that are tough.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Nope they are real magic shuriken.
    Great for damage, although they suffer the same problem of being able to hit since it is again a regular ranged attack.

    Hmmm... that's true, it doesn't say anything about them going away. Dip or UMD into wu jen with a higher BAB, SA, thrower-focused character could be fun. Although the all fire damage part is not so great considering it's one of the most commonly resisted energy type.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Forged Fury View Post
    Great for damage, although they suffer the same problem of being able to hit since it is again a regular ranged attack.

    Hmmm... that's true, it doesn't say anything about them going away. Dip or UMD into wu jen with a higher BAB, SA, thrower-focused character could be fun. Although the all fire damage part is not so great considering it's one of the most commonly resisted energy type.
    I'm sticking to my RAI on this one(Spell is an evocation, evocations usually go away), but if you want to go down that route, it still counts as a spell for casting purposes, so just Searing Spell them. They still provoke SR, though(which is quite odd if the spell was intended as a creation spell), so you might want to get something to bypass that part, too.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade Kerrin View Post
    I'm sticking to my RAI on this one(Spell is an evocation, evocations usually go away), but if you want to go down that route, it still counts as a spell for casting purposes, so just Searing Spell them. They still provoke SR, though(which is quite odd if the spell was intended as a creation spell), so you might want to get something to bypass that part, too.
    Admittedly, it doesn't make sense to me either. Sort of like how a magic orb of force isn't affected by spell resistance and can somehow (debatably) exist in an Antimagic Field. The examples used in the Rules of the Game article for Instantaneous ducation spell effects were Fireball and Wall of Stone. The fireball disappears after it's effect because that's what fire without a source of fuel does. The wall of stone sticks around, because that's what nonmagical walls of stone do. A shuriken composed of fire doesn't seem like it would stick around...

    How do you handle the attacks? A 6th level wu jen would create two fire shurikens, but could only use one (without specific feat investments for Rapid Shot). That kind of sucks, no? The update in Spell Compendium does little to improve on my understanding of the spell (and, of course, removes the Wu Jen designation).
    Last edited by Forged Fury; 2010-12-22 at 05:26 PM.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Wu Jen spell list makes me cry...

    Me, I treat it as an alternative version of Scorching ray, that has a threat range and adds stren to damage instead of being a touch attack. Remains more or less balanced.
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