Continuing the the tier discussion

[Lans]

A continuation of the derailment of this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=138013&page=2
The moderator said that somebody could continue the discussion in a new thread and I was in the middle of posting a reply when it got closed so I had to continue the discussion

The discussion was on what tier should several classes be.

Dragon Shaman: This is a jack of all trades type class, that allows it to give boosts that are alright in several areas, the share adaptation ability, and the healing to half with its lay on handsish ability makes it a decent support character.

The breath weapon, and Commune ability, wings, and natural armor boost give it a bit of nonstandard offense, information gathering, and movemet mode that things like the fighter and monk don't have a good access to.

Optimization wise it can become good healer with theuraputic mantle, and good blaster with the metabreath feats, and entangling breath.

Samurai is T5 or maybe very low tier 4. The high will save, skills, and daisho make of for the crappier feats, and its skill list is a bit better so it should be useful out of combata out of combat.

Shaman is probably T2, its spell list is good, but not cleric good. Its likely going to overshadow the cleric in a typical game. How ever it does get an animal companion and some druid spells so it might just be lower tier 1.

Marshal is largely tier 4 due to its double rainbow in diplomacy, and gives a large bonus opposed checks, charge attacks, and a bit of a bonus to hit.

[Greenish]

Let us continue then.

Dragon Shaman: This is a jack of all trades type class

It's not even near jack even in the areas it seems to cover. I'd say it's an 8 of many trades, but then I'm feeling mighty generous.

Samurai is T5 or maybe very low tier 4. The high will save, skills, and daisho make of for the crappier feats, and its skill list is a bit better so it should be useful out of combata out of combat.

The Daisho is basically just yet another preset feat, and given that you have to select a very short list to pick from with your scarce bonus feats, well, I really don't think the skills can get it to t4. It's marginally better than a core-only fighter, but once you move out of core a fighter's options explode.

Useful for entering some of OA's PrCs though.

Shaman is probably T2, its spell list is good, but not cleric good. Its likely going to overshadow the cleric in a typical game. How ever it does get an animal companion and some druid spells so it might just be lower tier 1.

Yeah, I'd tend to go with low-ish tier 1. Prepared casting, decent list with some help from domains, TU for DMM and other tricks.

Marshal is largely tier 4 due to its double rainbow in diplomacy, and gives a large bonus opposed checks, charge attacks, and a bit of a bonus to hit.

Marshal has a good level, and then 19 gradually worsening ones. The Major aura bonuses are weak, Grant Move action uses are seriously stingy, and once you've picked a handful of auras you're left with taking worse and worse ones.

Now, much like Dragon Shaman, marshal has it's actions free after giving it's minor bonuses to allies. Too bad marshal has even less to do with said actions.

Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).

[woodenbandman]

Yeah but expert has Use Magic Device on its skill list, therefore it should be higher than samurai/dragon shaman/marshal. :D

[Lord.Sorasen]

Question: What about the Dragonfire Adept? To my knowledge, it has yet to be tiered. And since people seem to generally prefer it to it's shaman bro.

Second question: Are the samurai and shaman not 3.0 classes? I'm sorry, this should be obvious, but I miss things a lot. Did OA ever get updated?

Now, to contribute:

Samurai definitely seems like tier 5 to me. The samurai, while seemingly a fighter with better skills and a better weapon, misses out on the alternate class features of the fighter, notably dungeon crasher, but there are others as well.

[Urpriest]

Question: What about the Dragonfire Adept? To my knowledge, it has yet to be tiered. And since people seem to generally prefer it to it's shaman bro.

Second question: Are the samurai and shaman not 3.0 classes? I'm sorry, this should be obvious, but I miss things a lot. Did OA ever get updated?

Now, to contribute:

Samurai definitely seems like tier 5 to me. The samurai, while seemingly a fighter with better skills and a better weapon, misses out on the alternate class features of the fighter, notably dungeon crasher, but there are others as well.

OA was updated via Dragon (318 I believe). There were some bits missing though.

I generally hear DFAs described as a Tier 3: like the Warlock, but with enough utility and native damage dealing (Entangling Exhalation for example) to bump it up a tier.

[Thrawn183]

I would say it's less about the increased utility of a DFA and more that they have such a solid chassis in comparison to the Warlock. They have d8 HD and are a Con focused class. They have great saves (especially if you use Endurance>Steadfast Determination). It's not that they contribute a huge amount in every single scenario, it's that they contribute decently well and are freaking impossible to kill.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure if DFA quite makes it to tier 3, but if not, it's a strong tier 4.

[MeeposFire]

DFA provides amazing battlefield control which is a great thing to have in a party.

It can easily have high will saves, epic fort, sky high HP, and since you do not need attack rolls high AC is within easy grasp (just add twilight, mithril, or whatever. Note you do not need this at low levels just grab armor and shields and not use invocations in combat). Your only weakness is reflex saves but with its hp its not so bad.

It has access to UMD and a great skill list in general.

In the original posts terms DFAs can

1) Do one thing well in battlefield control

2) If battle field control is not useful (in its case that is very rare) then they can put out some damage breath weapons or use UMD to get through it.

3) You can so entangle, slow, solid fog, a group of foes to death that you party can just pick them off at their leisure at times. This can be easilly handled but that is the definition of tier 3.

4) Great out of combat so you never feel too bad.

It can not be any higher in tiers since it lacks the sheer power to do it.

I think it is tier 3 lowish if you want to get that detailed.

[Zaq]

DFA is right on the cusp of T3 and T4. Assuming basic optimization (you did take Entangling Exhalation and Endure Exposure, right?), it's hard to make them feel totally useless in any given situation (possible, but far from automatic). And, as stated, they can make themselves very hard to kill without actually sacrificing that much. I wouldn't object to them being placed in either tier, but they're very close to the line in either case.

[DarkEternal]

How about the Sha'ir, if anyone knows of the class. It's from the Al-Qadim setting, and it was updated for 3.5 in one of the Dragon Magazines. I read a bit about it, and it seems to have a potential to be really, really awesome(can have any wizard-sorceror spell in existence, has an awesome genie familiar and can get domain spells from all elemental domains, Knowledge and something else), though it also is a bit time consuming since the genie literally has to bugger off and go to planes to ge the spells you requested from him.

[Weasel of Doom]

I think that DFA is a solid Tier 3.

Meepos demonstrated why they may fit in T3.

T4 has phrases like

"often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" - which I don't think fits DFA. Generally useful in combat due to good battlefield control and/or debuffs (not so good alone but how often is that the case?); good AoE damage to clear hordes of mooks; social skills as class skills, beguiling influence and charm make a decent face for social interaction; spot, listen, voidsense and invisibility make a decent scout; knowledge skills and draconic knowledge make for a good sage.

"Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter" - A lot of encounters with numerous mooks can be easily dealt with by a DFA and I don't think it's rare for a DFA to completely incapacitate single opponents.

"their abilities may sometimes leave them useless" - I think it's very rare for a DFA to be useless as long as invocations are chosen effectively. Certainly a DFA who chooses purely combat focused invocations and breath effects would often be useless but so would a wizard with purely direct damage spells.

So umm that's why I don't think a DFA is T4

[Greenish]

I think that DFA is a solid Tier 3.

<stuff>

So that's why I don't think a DFA is T4

Okay, I'm sold.

[MeeposFire]

DFAs are Tier 1 in fun just so you know...

My Meepo I used in a game was a DFA kobold still a group favorite.

[Weasel of Doom]

DFAs are Tier 1 in fun just so you know...

Definately, for you and the rest of the party. They can almost always do something useful but even what they do best lets the rest of the party play a role.

/DFA cheerleading

[Jjeinn-tae]

Definately, for you and the rest of the party. They can almost always do something useful but even what they do best lets the rest of the party play a role.

/DFA cheerleading

Truly all people should play the Dragonfire Adept, imagine it now... a world where everyone could breathe fire... Nah I like them too.



I'm going to second Shaman being in tier 1, turn undead, animal companion, and a good spell list, which all together allows for all sorts of 'fun.' I also personally like the Spirit Sight, but that really isn't much for the tiers. I wonder if there's something particularly exploitable with DMM and an animal companion on the same character...

[Greenish]

I wonder if there's something particularly exploitable with DMM and an animal companion on the same character...

Share Spells + DMM persisted buffs = two great bashers at the price of one.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Share Spells + DMM persisted buffs = two great bashers at the price of one.

Bingo! Do Shaman's have access to Divine Power?

[Tael]

Druids can get DMM too you know, just need a 1 level dip in a PrC.

[Lans]

Let us continue then.
It's not even near jack even in the areas it seems to cover. I'd say it's an 8 of many trades, but then I'm feeling mighty generous.

I'd say its a jack in being a support character, and its commune ability is top notch as far as information gathering goes.

The Daisho is basically just yet another preset feat, and given that you have to select a very short list to pick from with your scarce bonus feats, well, I really don't think the skills can get it to t4. It's marginally better than a core-only fighter, but once you move out of core a fighter's options explode.

Useful for entering some of OA's PrCs though.

The Daisho ability is also a free masterwork weapon at level 1, and I believe was errated to either gain the lawful ability or to get past lawful damage reduction for free at level 4. Its also the safety net that it gives when DMs are being stingy with the loot or are running a low magic campaign. When your level 13 and the DM has given the party access to under 100k gp of low level magical loot and you have a +5 sword its a huge boon.
Its not as potent as Ancestral Relic, but there is no guarantee that that book is going to be allowed, and it has advantages over it.

Don't underestimate the skills its the difference between having nothing to do during social scenes and having useful interaction.
NPC *talk,talk,talk*
Fighter twiddles thumbs
Samurai "The lying liar lies!"

This is in addition to the higher will save.
Its all of these things that make me think that its better overall than the fighter. Not in combat, but in social interactions, not being color sprayed, and not being screwed over by the DM.

Yeah, I'd tend to go with low-ish tier 1. Prepared casting, decent list with some help from domains, TU for DMM and other tricks.

It has tricks, but its lacking in the nuke compartment compared to the cleric. I honestly don't think its going to matter in the least in most games. I think I would say they probably average to be about the same.

Marshal has a good level, and then 19 gradually worsening ones. The Major aura bonuses are weak, Grant Move action uses are seriously stingy, and once you've picked a handful of auras you're left with taking worse and worse ones.

The minor auras are awesome, and provide a double rainbow with diplomacy, intimidate and bluff. This also gives a bonus to your buddies sense motive, and the scouts hide and move silently. It gets enough auras to be slamming bonuses to damn near everything the party is doing.

The marshal is also an extremely SAD in what it does, with its focus on Charisma.

Now, much like Dragon Shaman, marshal has it's actions free after giving it's minor bonuses to allies. Too bad marshal has even less to do with said actions.

With Imperious Command it has a good ability with its charisma, add in nets and tangle foot bags is has some good options.

Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).

Actually

capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining

is also tier 4.

Yeah but expert has Use Magic Device on its skill list, therefore it should be higher than samurai/dragon shaman/marshal. :D

Actually the Marshal is better at UMD than an expert. 5 Charisma+5Aura+2 CC >5Charisma+4 Ranks

[Greenish]

Bingo! Do Shaman's have access to Divine Power?

From a domain, yes.

[Edit]:

I'd say its a jack in being a support character, and its commune ability is top notch as far as information gathering goes.

It's not a very good support character.

The Daisho ability is also a free masterwork weapon at level 1, and I believe was errated to either gain the lawful ability or to get past lawful damage reduction for free at level 4. Its also the safety net that it gives when DMs are being stingy with the loot or are running a low magic campaign.

Maybe, but in a normal campaign it's not much anything.

Don't underestimate the skills its the difference between having nothing to do during social scenes and having useful interaction.
NPC *talk,talk,talk*
Fighter twiddles thumbs
Samurai "The lying liar lies!"

Skills are nice, yes. I like skills. Still, just having a few interaction skills and a full BAB won't quite cut it at tier 4. Fighters can do it too, with the ACF.

Its all of these things that make me think that its better overall than the fighter. Not in combat, but in social interactions, not being color sprayed, and not being screwed over by the DM.

Being somewhat competent at social interaction and barely better than Warrior in combat isn't tier 4.

The minor auras are awesome, and provide a double rainbow with diplomacy, intimidate and bluff. This also gives a bonus to your buddies sense motive, and the scouts hide and move silently. It gets enough auras to be slamming bonuses to damn near everything the party is doing.

But just one at the time. Just adding your Cha bonus to some stuff doesn't alone qualify for doing party support reasonably well, in my opinion.

The marshal is also an extremely SAD in what it does, with its focus on Charisma.

Because it doesn't do much anything.

With Imperious Command it has a good ability with its charisma, add in nets and tangle foot bags is has some good options.

A barbarian does better intimidation, in addition to being a damage machine. (Now that's a tier 4.) Tanglefoot bags, nets and UMD don't really feature, anyone can use those, even if the marshal is more inclined to do so due to lack of relevant options the class offers for using it's actions.

Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).

Actually

capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining

is also tier 4.

Yes, and I argued that they can't, and thus aren't.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Druids can get DMM too you know, just need a 1 level dip in a PrC.

Yeah, Shaman's are probably worse off compared to Druids, but it's definitely a thing going for the Shaman too.

From a domain, yes.

Thought so, now I can't think of anything else specifically a Shaman could do, but it really seems that Shaman > Favored Soul, automatically having Turn Undead for DMM sharing spells with an animal companion, and knowing their entire list really seem to put them ahead.

[Defiant]

Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).

I firmly disagree. Marshals are the strongest non-magical-based class, possibly strongest class at all the social interactions. With massive Charisma, a Charisma bonus to Charisma, and full investment into that, you can ensure that your Marshal can at least do well the thing it was meant to.

The fact that it does just about nothing else well is why it stays at Tier 4.

[Greenish]

I firmly disagree. Marshals are the strongest non-magical-based class, possibly strongest class at all the social interactions.

"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed".

[Zonugal]

"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed".

The rearing & training of animals also falls under the Marshal's domain and they do it well. Also let us not forget they possess all the knowledge skills so a boost from Knowledge Devotion isn't to be overlooked.

[Greenish]

The rearing & training of animals also falls under the Marshal's domain and they do it well.

Doesn't really fall into the system. A commoner might rear a battletitan at level 9, but that hardly means they're not tier 6.

Also let us not forget they possess all the knowledge skills so a boost from Knowledge Devotion isn't to be overlooked.

Assuming they've got points to burn, they can compete with Warriors.

An Expert can do UMD, Handle Animal, face skills, smattering of knowledge and slap iaijutsu focus and autohypnosis on top of that. Marshal is better, yeah, but not enough to go up a tier.

[Lans]

Doesn't really fall into the system. A commoner might rear a battletitan at level 9, but that hardly means they're not tier 6.
Assuming they've got points to burn, they can compete with Warriors.

Err, the training of animals is something that Marshals Excel at, or at the very least better than most classes that just have the skill. So while the commoner is rearing the battle titan the marshal is adding the warbeast template to it.

An Expert can do UMD, Handle Animal, face skills, smattering of knowledge and slap iaijutsu focus and autohypnosis on top of that. Marshal is better, yeah, but not enough to go up a tier.

The marshal is better at any skill that he has as a class skill than anything short of a factotum or courtier, due to what amounts to the super skill focus auras that he gets. Not to mention things like art of war which allows him to be awesome with a reach weapon, and to boost the actual tripping person to heck.

[Coidzor]

"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed".

That sounds like a D&D Jeopardy category...

[Lans]

"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed".

I think you underestimate how much social interactions occur in some peoples game. Sometimes its more than half.

[Koury]

I think you underestimate how much social interactions occur in some peoples game. Sometimes its more than half.

I'm just going off memory here, but social interactions are only about 1/3rd of the weighting for the tier list, if I recall correctly.

[Urpriest]

I think you underestimate how much social interactions occur in some peoples game. Sometimes its more than half.

That's a DM who really overuses Antimagic fields, then.