[3.5]/[PF] Players using silent image to block all light?

[Dakaar]

So,

I was talking to one of my players. They're considering all taking darkvision (the whole party), and using spells like silent image and etc to block light/vision in a room. What do you guys think of this as far as how this would play out? As per the spell, enemies dont get a save unless they try and interact with the illusion.

So lets use an example, say theres a row of torches on a wall, and you create an illusory wall (within your spell limit of 5x 10 foot cubes) that covers up the torches. You are underground and the torches were the only light the room. What happens?

And for bonus points, what if they come up with the bright idea to say, create an illusion that, for example, a 20 foot sphere of darkness is surrounding them?

Rules wise I think this trumps alot of higher level spells (darkness, etc). What about the area outside the range of the spell, that would normally be lit up, but are being "blocked" by the illusion?

[ffone]

Unless the spell says you can block light or line of sight with the spell, I wouldn't let it - just b/c you can create opaque things with the spell doesn't mean it blocks all light...since illusion magic doesn't have to obey the 'real' laws of optics. (Or perhaps it does, but there's some subtle explanation, like the illusion 'flickering' at such a fast pace that the human eye doesn't discern it - like a movie theater projector - but this means that light gets through in between the flickers.)

Otherwise the spells become much more powerful (cast it between PCs and enemy mages so they can't use any targeted spells, line of sight having been blocked.) Mildly clever, I suppose.

[Kyouhen]

I'd say that if they wanted to block all light they'd need to be able to cast a large enough illusion to make it look like everything in the room is covered in darkness. The floor, the cieling, the walls, and everything in between. That could be a pretty big area, and you'd have to keep adjusting it every time someone moves, so it isn't that effective. That and everyone in the room would immediately get a Will save to disbelieve the fact that it's suddenly really dark, which pretty much defeats the purpose.

If they wanted to make a sphere of blackness around them they'd be able to block line of sight with it, but it wouldn't take long before people figured out it was only an illusion and have it vanish.

Unless the spell says you can block light or line of sight with the spell, I wouldn't let it - just b/c you can create opaque things with the spell doesn't mean it blocks all light...since illusion magic doesn't have to obey the 'real' laws of optics. (Or perhaps it does, but there's some subtle explanation, like the illusion 'flickering' at such a fast pace that the human eye doesn't discern it - like a movie theater projector - but this means that light gets through in between the flickers.)

Otherwise the spells become much more powerful (cast it between PCs and enemy mages so they can't use any targeted spells, line of sight having been blocked.) Mildly clever, I suppose.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can use it to block line of sight. Or at least block it by making something opaque (a wall) appear or by making an illusion of the wall behind you between you and the enemy so it looks like you disappear. The problem is this wouldn't cover light (unless you extend the area of the illusion to make it look like the light is right) and everyone watching you would get an immediate Will save to disbelieve the fact that you just vanished.

That trick is actually pretty handy if you don't want people to see you breaking into a building, just as long as nobody's watching when you put up the illusion.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, sure it's a powerful use of the spell, but anyone who touches, it or has other reason to doubt the image, can disbelieve. I see this as actually quite a clever use of the spell and good job on the players part.

[icefractal]

I don't think they could block light specifically, but I think they could make something opaque. It would be opaque to darkvision as well, but since they know it's an illusion they can interact with it ahead of time and gain a significant bonus on their save.

So:
Just covering the torches - The torches would be hidden, but the room would still be lit.
Black sphere around the party - Yes, although any enemies that step inside it will be able to see them as normal.
Entire area filled with completely opaque fog - Yes, although if any party members fail to disbelieve it, they will also be unable to see anything.

[DukeofDellot]

The spell says that things can pass through these images... and light is still a "thing"... wait a second, it doesn't say that... hm...

You know, the fact that there's a spell that does this already (and is higher level) makes me think, no, it doesn't.


On that note, I have a lot of players cast detect magic after an opponent turns invisible and complain when I don't just let them see the invisibility spell. My problems is that there's already a See Invisibility spell. Now naturally, it never says that Detect works like sight, but coming from GURPS where Detect specifically mentions sight it's pretty easy to explain it that way.

Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that if there's a spell that grants the specific effect already, and is the same or higher level, I wouldn't allow it for "balance reasons"... Even though I know very well that the game is not balanced, I still use that reason.

[icefractal]

It's not usually a binary situation. Detect Magic does (by the rules) detect an Invisibility spell. However, it's not really a substitute for See Invisibility, for several reasons:

1) You have to concentrate for three rounds to get a location. In most battles, that's a long time.
2) If the invisible person moves out of your cone, you have to start the three rounds again. Easily done in many environments, especially since if they have any skill in Spellcraft, they should be able to tell what you're doing.
3) It only gives you a position - you still have a 50% miss chance and are still flat-footed against them.


Likewise, Darkness lasts hours and can be cast on (for instance) a dagger blade, automatically moving around with you and able to be toggled by sheathing / unsheathing it.

In contrast, Silent Image only lasts as long as you concentrate on it (so that's eating up all your actions), is fixed within the area you initially cast it in, and can be disbelieved. Those are some pretty hefty limitations.

I mean, you could use Polymorph any Object to turn the floor slippery. That doesn't mean Grease should be an 8th level spell.

[ryuteki]

Remember that in 3.5, neither Darkness nor Invisibility stop light completely. If you are invisible and carrying a torch, you appear to be a noncorporeal floating flickering light. Darkness really should have been called "Shade" as it doesn't make it pitch black anymore, and I'm not sure if there is even a higher-level spell that makes things pitch black. Darkness instead lowers the light levels to "dim lighting" that provides 20% miss chance. (Technically the wording of the spell also raises pitch black conditions to dim lighting, but every gamer I know ignores that bit as bad editing).

Therefore, I would absolutely not allow Silent Image to prevent a light source from passing through. I would let it block line-of-sight without a second thought, but if there is a light source behind it, will saves are immediate.

[Claudius Maximus]

Assassin's Darkness is still complete darkness, as are a few old darkness spells that didn't get updated (like No Light and Utterdark).

[DukeofDellot]

You have to concentrate for three rounds to get a location. In most battles, that's a long time.

I completely forgot about that... Detect Magic was one of the spells I had to dumb down for one of my players... ... I never told him how it actually worked as it would have stalled the game, and I guess I forgot to re-implement it after I kicked him out.

...

Then I had to spend ten minutes explaining (really I just had to explain it five times, but it added up to ten minutes) why a character still had a miss chance against an invisible character if they already knew where the opponent was... and I really couldn't, at all. Personally, I think miss chance is a stupid rule, and I've been looking to houserule it out...

You know, I've been houseruling this game too much, I should really fall back to a better system.

[doctor_wu]

If you have a dark room couldn't you use silent image on the door to make it a broom closet? That seem like a reasonable use.

This does stop some funny Gm uses of a permenant BBEG flies out the ceiling becuase of a permanent silent image if the celing leads to the outside and then moonlight will show through or sunlight.

What if you create a illusory thing that looks like light on the image where it is coming from like some brightly growing fungus in the the relative size of the light source and then it is questionable.

[NiteCyper]

{Scrubbed}

[ericgrau]

Blocking line of sight doesn't stop spell-casting because spells only require line of effect. As long as there's no solid object in between you're good. Targetting things you can't see may be a bit difficult though. Hope they prepped some area spells.

Keep in mind that proof that an illusion is fake breaks it no matter what your save. So as soon as they touch your illusionary curtains they're done. Interacting such as examining closely grants a save and no interaction means no save.

I'm not saying the OPs tactic works or doesn't work though. I dunno.

[Heliomance]

I completely forgot about that... Detect Magic was one of the spells I had to dumb down for one of my players... ... I never told him how it actually worked as it would have stalled the game, and I guess I forgot to re-implement it after I kicked him out.

...

Then I had to spend ten minutes explaining (really I just had to explain it five times, but it added up to ten minutes) why a character still had a miss chance against an invisible character if they already knew where the opponent was... and I really couldn't, at all. Personally, I think miss chance is a stupid rule, and I've been looking to houserule it out...

You know, I've been houseruling this game too much, I should really fall back to a better system.

You know roughly where they are, the 5-foot square they're in. Essentially, the information you have on their position boils down to "they're pretty much in front of me." You still can't see them. So you know roughly the right place to aim for, but there's still a bunch of space in that area that's not them.

[Ravens_cry]

You know roughly where they are, the 5-foot square they're in. Essentially, the information you have on their position boils down to "they're pretty much in front of me." You still can't see them. So you know roughly the right place to aim for, but there's still a bunch of space in that area that's not them.

Unless there an invisible gelatinous cube.

[falcon36]

You know roughly where they are, the 5-foot square they're in. Essentially, the information you have on their position boils down to "they're pretty much in front of me." You still can't see them. So you know roughly the right place to aim for, but there's still a bunch of space in that area that's not them.

Also, 5 by 5ft is still a pretty big area to cover. DnD uses 5ft blocks because people usually need that much space to fight so if you can't see your enemy, even if you make a full sideways swipe at the edge of your square with a greatsword, you could still miss if they were shorter than you thought or if they ducked (not to mention that probably is a tactically bad idea since it leaves you open for an easy counterattack as you swing around from your own momentum).

[2xMachina]

It's not usually a binary situation. Detect Magic does (by the rules) detect an Invisibility spell. However, it's not really a substitute for See Invisibility, for several reasons:

1) You have to concentrate for three rounds to get a location. In most battles, that's a long time.
2) If the invisible person moves out of your cone, you have to start the three rounds again. Easily done in many environments, especially since if they have any skill in Spellcraft, they should be able to tell what you're doing.
3) It only gives you a position - you still have a 50% miss chance and are still flat-footed against them.

Arcane Sight is nice :)
Still stuck on 3 though.